Here how we lost, but hope is for the future

[SoCalPVguy]

This was NOT written by me, but by Mr. Albert D. Kallal, who has several posts on this board, but he posted this on another (unmentionable) site. I see he did not post it on this board, but I think it is a pretty good piece that should be considered by everyone, especially the bitter "fans" that are considering giving up open wheel racing becuase of petty emotions of hatered towrds any individual or entity.

Here how we lost, but hope is for the future

I’ve often many times made statements here about the chess game in life called business.

Like it or not, one of the most significant moves by the IRL was to change its direction in how they were managing the league.

I believe this significant change in management or philosophy, or direction of the IRL occurred not last year but the year before when it they really looked like champ car was going to take off big time. We had Katherine legge on all of the morning talk shows being interviewed about her crash at Road America. Not only that, but she was teamed up with Ford with a promotion to fight cancer for Women, and that was also making headlines, and was good PR.

We also had Paul Tracy in the Media quite a bit. Be it his Golf cart accident, or the fight with Alex Tag, he was making the front page news big time. Furthermore that year PT had the big huge blowup in Montréal, and the famous picture of PT wearning a mask was plastered all over the newspapers and was front page news just about everywhere.

Another stunning event was the HUGE attendance figure at the Edmonton race, and champ had also announced the return to Road America.

In a way all of the above signs pointed to HUGE momentum for champ car. Champ car was poised to really start taking off.

Remember at that time we also still had Ford as a corporate sponsor.

Furthermore, it was announced that the new car was being developed. Pictures and testing was starting to occur. In a sense champ car had arrived. There were also rumors that TG even flew to Panos, as they could not believe that champ car was actually going to build a new car.

I believe all of the above observations are what kicked the IRL into high gear and was a serious wake up call into how they were managing the IRL.

They began to feel like their butt was being kicked.

A few significant things happened. First and foremost is the IRL simply woke up and started to fight again.

The IRL decided to start going back into street racing, they did things like drop Michigan, and introduced the Detroit auto race. Further Roger Penske poured in money to make sure the place was not a rat infested stink hole, but a first class event (more on RP later).

The other significant thing happened is they also went back to mid Ohio. In a nutshell the IRL simply was shocked into changing their vision, and simply decided to do everything that we were doing. If we’re going to have paddle shifters in our cars, they would announce paddle shifters. If we’re going to have girls sell hot dogs on Rollerblades, they were going to have girls sell hot dogs on Rollerblades.

If we’re going to have street festivals of speed, they were going to do street festivals.

If we were going to Road America, a natural terrain course, then the IRL was going to mid Ohio.

In the great game of business chess, when you’re in a fight to the death, you simply do everything your opponent does. THE TIME TO MAKE THIS CLASSIC BUSINESS MOVE is when you HAVE SOMETHING THEY CANNOT DUPLICATE!

The particular thing that the IRL had was the Indy 500, and we COULD NOT duplicate that event. So, you simply do everything that champ car does, and at the end of the day, they win because they have a product like champ car (or close enough), and champ car can not counter. Champ car had no response to the Indy 500. Their only strategy was to start a move into Europe. (KK knows this game too by the way!!).

Champ car COULD have tried to counter with moving back into ovals, and that would have scared the hell out of the IRL, but without the 500 to make ovals matter, it would not been much of a counter punch.

The simple fact of the matter is in any business competition and venture; you counter the competition and DO WHAT THEY do. This countering of competition and business is a time honored way you fight over the same market. It is a simple tit for tat process. (by the way, Sony with the ps3, and Microsoft with the xbox are in a simular battle right now).

If you have something that your competitors can’t offer, but YOU CAN offer everything the competitors have, then you going to win this fight every time.

Now of course, Dave Despan on WindTunned said that that when the split occurred 12 years ago, he honestly believed that their was room a oval type series (IRL), and then a series like champ car that was international in flavor and was mostly comprised of road courses.

In fact the IRL stuck to ovals, and champ moved towards the street and road courses and dropped ovals altogether. With all of the incredible momentum that champ car started to have, I suppose CCWS could’ve made CCWS work if the management hadn’t dropped the ball in so many places.

The final tipping point in this process with weak CCWS management, the competition (IRL) moved into that same marketplace, and that really was the beginning of the end for champ car.

The IRL’s move into street racing, and natural terrain road racing is really what caused the tipping point here. However make no mistake here, at that time the IRL was in serious trouble also.

Even this year was poised to be a bleak year for the IRL. They lost Dario, they lost Sam Hornish, they lost Scott Sharp. The only bright spot was dancing on the stars, and Dankia, and Marco.

There’s no question that some of us people did cry about the fact that the IRL lost their vision of ovals.

In business, it is simply is business! and the IRL simply gave up its vision that was not working. It seems a few years ago that CCWS spooked the IRL into changing their ways, or the IRL was going to die.

In a way, CCWS was a significant contribution to open will racing, because it forced the IRL to change its business model, give up its original vision, and become like CART and champ car.

Today we have a situation where we have a mix of street, ovals, Superspeedways. Now don’t this sititation for the IRL sound familiar?

I guess this means that champ car was right all along, since today were very much like we were twelve years ago, except we’re standing in the rubble of a huge war that occurred.

It is also significant to point out that without champ car, the IRL would have NEVER been forced to change vision of what open wheel racing is supposed to be.

CART and champ car were right, and forcing the change in the IRL’s vision proves this.

What this means is that the efforts of champ car and this was was not lost. It was the EXISTENCE of champ car forced the IRL to change it ways.

This means that champ car efforts were not in vain, because while we lost the war, we did force the IRL to change to our vision, and that made the fight worth it.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

footnote:

I should also note that when I saw the IRL significantly change its direction about 2-3 years ago, it is at that point that I realized that the IRL had new management. When an organization starts to do the things that I WOULD do, then I start to worry. Perhaps TG started to listen to Roger Penske. Roger Penske by the way is a masterful chess player in the game of business, and also RP has a gift for excellence. I not sure what occurred in the IRL, but I DID see them starting to make serious moves, and their countering of champ car represented a SIGNIFICANT change in their ways. This move was VERY CLEAR AND OBVIOUS to me. This again is a story missed by Robin Miller.

I held this observation to myself, and did not post about this newfound direction here in the forums. After all, it did not mean the IRL would win here, but it was quite obvious that the IRL was simply going to copy anything that champ car did, and we could not copy their 500 race. It was that simple, and I saw a clear direction change in the IRL.

I believe this change came from Roger Penske, because TG never showed this type of smarts.

I don't particular like the IRL formula (cars), but we have this unification and I'll give it the best of the chance. Hope springs eternal.

Champ cars fight changed the future of racing, and I am thankfull for all of the incredible memories, and incredible racing the cart/ccws gave to us. I will cherish these events and memories for a lifetime

The future still does hold hope, and this hope exists today because of the fight and blood that champ car spilled in this fight...

[Chaparral66]

Robin Miller didn't miss anything, SoCal. He's commented on the IRL venue shift many times. And he'll be commenting on it again as he and others begine to present a picture of the events that made this merger happen in the coming months, count on it.

[SoCalPVguy]

Robin Miller didn't miss anything, SoCal. He's commented on the IRL venue shift many times. And he'll be commenting on it again as he and others begine to present a picture of the events that made this merger happen in the coming months, count on it.

I agree with you, that was part of Mr. Kallal's text. Miller has been more on top of this than anyone maybe even the amigos...

[Albert D. Kallal]

Robin Miller didn't miss anything, SoCal. He's commented on the IRL venue shift many times. And he'll be commenting on it again as he and others begine to present a picture of the events that made this merger happen in the coming months, count on it.

Actually, everyone commented on the shift and change in vision of the IRL. I think even two year olds in diapers saw that shift in the IRL.

There is a grand canyon, mount Everest difference in somebody simply telling me that the IRL is changing its vision. The IRL’s move into streets and road courses was a story pointed out by everyone, including RM.

RM covered that change many times ( and he also pointed out the it was a bit hypocritical on the side of the IRL to lose its original vision).

That was NOT my point and that was not the story that RM missed.

My point was the change in vision would represent a serious challenge to champ car, and it was a move that CCWS COULD NOT respond to! That was the story that RM missed. It was quite obvious to me that this was the beginning of the end for champ car (unless champ car came up with a relative new strategy to counter this move by the IRL).

RM did not comment on anything remotely close to that this change in the IRL would force the hand of champ car, and likely break their back. For me, it was very obvious and a classic business move that the IRL had just done. It was crystal clear that a significant challenge and card has just been dealt, and RM said nothing of this newfound challenge that champ car faced.

The 2nd large story that RM missed is not only had the IRL changed its game, but it was playing a far more sophisticated game. There was all of the sudden a newfound intelligence to IRL moves that made incredible sense to me. When an organization becomes extremely intelligent all of a sudden, that represents in itself a huge story. RM failed to mention that all the sudden these people were thinking in an extremely intelligent and sophisticated way. (as I mentioned, I think this was Roger Penske at work here…as he is a master at the game of business).

Remember, if RM was able to see this significant change and point out the above, then he would not be a simpleton reporter that can hardly hold down a job, and has not built any wealth producing business in his life.

The story was not the fact that the IRL changed its vision, but the fact that by changing their vision it was going to deal a severe blow to champ car, one that CCWS likely could not handle. RM never pointed this out.

This new problem and challenge for champ car was so crystal clear and obvious to me. But then again my upbringing and experience allows me to see these things with relative ease.

As a footnote I didn’t bother to place a copy of the long post the in this forum because I thought there was a little bit of an issues of sensitivity and respect here. However I am rather flattered that someone thought it was worthy of being posted here.

To be honest I think the only negative thing I really said was I don’t particularly like the IRL formula -- what that means is it’s I am not really particularly fond of the car. I want to clarify this comment of mine. By formula, I simply want a MORE challenging car. It is NOT the fact of ovals etc. I do like some ovals in the overall mix of things. And, the mix we now have is reminiscent of the glory days of past anyway. This is good!

I simply want a more challenging car to drive at a higher level of performance here.

This unification no matter how you slice and dice it is a huge thing for motor sports, and is the best thing that’s happened to open will racing in a long time. A few drivers and teams will just have some growing pains, and have to wait out a season or two for hope of being competitive (until they get a new car).

At the end of the day lack of competitiveness a season or two by some teams is a small price to pay for the future and hope eternal that springs out of this unification.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[pits4me]

Otherwise known as Game Theory. Don't think for a minute that the power of influence of CCWS team owners, crew, drivers and sponsors were flushed with this almagamation. The seeds are firmly planted in the ground. Especially if Paul Stoddart is here to stay.

[Chaparral66]

Actually, everyone commented on the shift and change in vision of the IRL. I think even two year olds in diapers saw that shift in the IRL.

There is a grand canyon, mount Everest difference in somebody simply telling me that the IRL is changing its vision. The IRL’s move into streets and road courses was a story pointed out by everyone, including RM.

RM covered that change many times ( and he also pointed out the it was a bit hypocritical on the side of the IRL to lose its original vision).

That was NOT my point and that was not the story that RM missed.

My point was the change in vision would represent a serious challenge to champ car, and it was a move that CCWS COULD NOT respond to! That was the story that RM missed. It was quite obvious to me that this was the beginning of the end for champ car (unless champ car came up with a relative new strategy to counter this move by the IRL).

RM did not comment on anything remotely close to that this change in the IRL would force the hand of champ car, and likely break their back. For me, it was very obvious and a classic business move that the IRL had just done. It was crystal clear that a significant challenge and card has just been dealt, and RM said nothing of this newfound challenge that champ car faced.

The 2nd large story that RM missed is not only had the IRL changed its game, but it was playing a far more sophisticated game. There was all of the sudden a newfound intelligence to IRL moves that made incredible sense to me. When an organization becomes extremely intelligent all of a sudden, that represents in itself a huge story. RM failed to mention that all the sudden these people were thinking in an extremely intelligent and sophisticated way. (as I mentioned, I think this was Roger Penske at work here…as he is a master at the game of business).

Remember, if RM was able to see this significant change and point out the above, then he would not be a simpleton reporter that can hardly hold down a job, and has not built any wealth producing business in his life.

The story was not the fact that the IRL changed its vision, but the fact that by changing their vision it was going to deal a severe blow to champ car, one that CCWS likely could not handle. RM never pointed this out.

This new problem and challenge for champ car was so crystal clear and obvious to me. But then again my upbringing and experience allows me to see these things with relative ease.

As a footnote I didn’t bother to place a copy of the long post the in this forum because I thought there was a little bit of an issues of sensitivity and respect here. However I am rather flattered that someone thought it was worthy of being posted here.

To be honest I think the only negative thing I really said was I don’t particularly like the IRL formula -- what that means is it’s I am not really particularly fond of the car. I want to clarify this comment of mine. By formula, I simply want a MORE challenging car. It is NOT the fact of ovals etc. I do like some ovals in the overall mix of things. And, the mix we now have is reminiscent of the glory days of past anyway. This is good!

I simply want a more challenging car to drive at a higher level of performance here.

This unification no matter how you slice and dice it is a huge thing for motor sports, and is the best thing that’s happened to open will racing in a long time. A few drivers and teams will just have some growing pains, and have to wait out a season or two for hope of being competitive (until they get a new car).

At the end of the day lack of competitiveness a season or two by some teams is a small price to pay for the future and hope eternal that springs out of this unification.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

I understand your point a bit better, thanks for clarifying. However, I will stop short, way short, of taking Robin Miller to task for not coming up with this same viewpoint. There's nothing to say that RM had to share this view with you and put into a column. His reaction to that was different. He probably didn't put the same significance into that view you did, and there's nothing wrong with that. Two intelligent people can look at the same sequence of events and come up with completely different conclusions. It doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, based on the same set of facts, it's that you both reacted differently. And add to this, in my humble opinion, while I understand where you're coming from, I don't agree with you completely. Was Champ Car lacking for an answer to the Indy 500? Of course, from day one of the split. But is it also true that the IRL's shift in venues to include road and street courses was the deciding factor that spelled the end of Champ Car? That goes a bit too far for me.

When TG decided to change his vision and include road and street courses that unquestionably had CART overtones to it, that was indeed a major change, since TG's original appraoch was to be all ovals.

But after a few years, it was clear that wasn't working out too well. And then someone caught a picture of a covert Tony George at Long Beach observing the race, and soon after the new vision was underway. It was evident from the start that TG' heart, at least initially, was not in it. But he soon found enough interest that told him to stay on this trend.

And yet, there can be no question that Champ Car was clearly better at racing the road and street courses. Their cars were much better set up for it, and they enjoyed much higher creditability than the IRL both with the media and fans. The only thing that prevented the IRL from looking really foolish with this is that they had a number of drivers who had major road racing chops, such as Helio Castroneves and Tony Kanaan, to name a few.

The fact that Robin Miller didn't mention that the IRL going road racing was the death knell of Champ Car merely represents a difference of opinion between you and him, not an historical and factual ommission on RM's part. It's not that you were right and he was wrong, he just didn't think it was as important as you did. Miller is pretty firm in his conviction that is was a variety of bad judgement that contributed to the decline of Champ Car (TV deal on Spike, eliminating ovals, not aggressively pursuing American drivers, no promotion, horribly late with schedules, etc.). Your view is just as viable as his, just different. That shouldn't be too much of a surprise. And that in no way should take away from the dogged reporting Miller has done to keep the sport in the limelight, and to make sure that whatever was happening, to present the truth in spite of whatever spin was being spewed out. We have him, along with people like Gordon Kirby and David Phillips to thank for keeping the pressure on to bring this asinine war to an end.

One more thing: Tony George has clearly come to terms with the CART approach, and that made it easier for him to work out a plan for getting back together with CCWS than it did a few years ago. This why I'm calling the end of this war a draw. TG gets to be top dog, but he knows he must use the CART approach to scheduling events, because that's what the fans are expecting. He's even giving lip service to thinking about turbos, so maybe there's some light at the end of the tunnel for turbo engines, maybe even the Panoz DP-01 (I can dream, can't I?). Time will tell, let's get to work.

[Cart750hp]

I hate to read some sympathetic posts from fans. Simply, I just think some took CC way over their heads that's why you see some posts like the above. Some have good points but this is all I can say: "this is business. The product is the sport and entertainment. When TG split from CART, he open up his business and he spent money to get it right the way he wanted it. CC on the other hand, is getting the huge hit due to what was it was like during the good old days. IRL wise, no one cares much other than the I500. CC plan didn't work out and time to sell and have it under IndyCar, maybe, just maybe, it'll be healthy for the series (business) and others. That's all.

Now we're under one series, possibilities are endless unlike two series competing from sponsors (money).

[Albert D. Kallal]

The fact that Robin Miller didn't mention that the IRL going road racing was the death knell of Champ Car merely represents a difference of opinion between you and him


I never claimed this was death knell of champ car. I said it was a SIGNIFICANT factor. There are many issues, but the IRL moving into non ovals was a big issue.

As you say, nothing wrong with RM failing to point this out, but then again, that goes back to my point of him not being able to grasp the significance of this business change. If RM could see and understand this change, as I said, he would not be a simple reporter man as he is now.

The fact is the IRL moved into the same marketplace as champ car. There was really NOTHING that champ had to respond when the IRL moved into champ car territory. This is not the ONLY issue in the downfall here of CCWS.

If your telling me RM did not give this importance enough to report on, then that is EXACTLY my point!

RM can no more comment on the finer points of brain surgery then he can on the finer points of how business works to me. In a way, it likey was not his job to understand and report on this issue anway...

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[Chaparral66]

I never claimed this was death knell of champ car. I said it was a SIGNIFICANT factor. There are many issues, but the IRL moving into non ovals was a big issue.

OK, my bad, significant factor. But I don't agree with that theory, in that it was as significant as you suggest. Apparently Robin doesn't either.

As you say, nothing wrong with RM failing to point this out, but then again, that goes back to my point of him not being able to grasp the significance of this business change. If RM could see and understand this change, as I said, he would not be a simple reporter man as he is now.

It's not a matter of not being able to grasp it, it's that he didn't think it was as important as you did. As I said, two people can look at the same history, and draw different conclusions from it.

The fact is the IRL moved into the same marketplace as champ car. There was really NOTHING that champ had to respond when the IRL moved into champ car territory. This is not the ONLY issue in the downfall here of CCWS.

I question whether Champ Car needed to respond directly. As I said, even though the IRL went road racing, just about everyone knew TG's heart wasn't in it, at least at first, but he did come around eventually. Champ Car was doing fine standing up to that competition, that wasn't enough of a threat to cause any significant damage. Right now, you have both the ALMS and Grand Am essentially competing for the same audience, and niether one of those series seem to be affected. Sure, Grand Am has the Rolex 24 and ALMS has 12 Hours of Sebring; both series, albeit with a smaller but growing audience, seem to be doing OK. Champ Car declined for other important reasons already discussed herein. Another point to this is that CCWS usually drew a better crowd to their road and street course events than the IRL, so the theory comes up a bit short on that end as well.

If your telling me RM did not give this importance enough to report on, then that is EXACTLY my point!

OK, but that doesn't make HIM wrong.

RM can no more comment on the finer points of brain surgery then he can on the finer points of how business works to me. In a way, it likey was not his job to understand and report on this issue anway...


Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com


I think you sell him a bit short. He understands enough of the business end of it to incorporate what that means insofar as the series' direction and scope. You two just see it differently, that's all.

[weeflyonthewall]

I think you sell him a bit short. He understands enough of the business end of it to incorporate what that means insofar as the series' direction and scope. You two just see it differently, that's all.

And TG's INDY 500's 100th birthday had nothing to do with taking a realistic attitude?

[Chaparral66]

And TG's INDY 500's 100th birthday had nothing to do with taking a realistic attitude?

As far as Tony George is concerned, or Robin Miller?

[BenRoethig]

The largest failure of the last near decade was to think that there were separate markets when reality clearly said otherwise. There is only room enough for one major open wheel series. There is little interest in either an all oval or all road course series. In the end these two sets of egos have left us battered and nearly depleted. CCWS failed for the same reason the all oval version of the IRL failed, they were trying to push a product that didn't interest the fans. If the definition of Insanity of repeating the same failed policies and expecting a different result, they need to put up both Forsythe and George in a pair of padded rooms.

[infoxicated]

I'm not seeing why this is such a great post that it warranted being posted by anyone other than the original author, and he chose not to do so.

Rarely have I read such a load of blinkered rubbish on the internet, and that's saying something. Misinformed, biased, bereft of facts and oblivious to the actual chronological order of events - Albert D. Kallal's post is worthless.

[wheelsontires]

nicely written.

[garyshell]

nicely written.


What was nicely written? The original message? One of the replies? Please, when you reply use the quote button and then pare down the quote as needed. That way we will have some context in which to read your reply. As this one stands we have no clue what you are saying.

Gary

[Brad Dill]

I don't buy it.

The IRL did not change direction, because they were worried about CC. That's silly.

Look at CC itself. It changed direction almost every year of its short 4 year life. It started off as a series that would be like CART, but only have money making venues (no self-promotion).

Then it dropped its oval races and most of its road races to become the series of "urband festivals of speed". And of course "MotoRock"

Many of its races were losing money and the owners (KK and GF) had to buy out LB and Toronto and do many self-promotion and co-promotion events.

The street thing began to fail and suddenly CC was going to become more European. Racing on road courses in Europe.

All the time KK and GF were spending millions to keep the series alive and millions to keep it on TV in the US where ratings were dismal to say the least.

This is what Albert D. Kallal thinks frightened the IRL into action????

If you go back to the beginning of the IRL Tony George always said there would be road racing in the IRL's future. And they took the steps necessary to introduce road racing long ago. The IRL began working on a road race package back in 2004 and introduced road/street racing to the schedule in 2005, long before the DP01 ever came to life even on a drawing board.

Penske has been involved with revitalizing Detroit for many years he helped draw up a proposal for the Superbowl in 2005 and was a big part of the actual successful event in 2006. The idea of bringing back the Detroit IndyCar race wasn't a reaction to CC, but a continuation of Roger's commitment to both Indy Racing and Detroit.

The IRL now has approx. 50% ovals and 50% road/street races but the large leap in the area of street races is due to the merger more than anything else. If the merger had not happened the IRL would have had a 2008 schedule approx. 70% oval and 30% road/street.

To say the IRL suddenly changed direction because it feared the growing popularity of CC is silly.

[!!WALDO!!]

I don't buy it.

The IRL did not change direction, because they were worried about CC. That's silly.

Look at CC itself. It changed direction almost every year of its short 4 year life. It started off as a series that would be like CART, but only have money making venues (no self-promotion).

Then it dropped its oval races and most of its road races to become the series of "urband festivals of speed". And of course "MotoRock"

Many of its races were losing money and the owners (KK and GF) had to buy out LB and Toronto and do many self-promotion and co-promotion events.

The street thing began to fail and suddenly CC was going to become more European. Racing on road courses in Europe.

All the time KK and GF were spending millions to keep the series alive and millions to keep it on TV in the US where ratings were dismal to say the least.

This is what Albert D. Kallal thinks frightened the IRL into action????

If you go back to the beginning of the IRL Tony George always said there would be road racing in the IRL's future. And they took the steps necessary to introduce road racing long ago. The IRL began working on a road race package back in 2004 and introduced road/street racing to the schedule in 2005, long before the DP01 ever came to life even on a drawing board.

Penske has been involved with revitalizing Detroit for many years he helped draw up a proposal for the Superbowl in 2005 and was a big part of the actual successful event in 2006. The idea of bringing back the Detroit IndyCar race wasn't a reaction to CC, but a continuation of Roger's commitment to both Indy Racing and Detroit.

The IRL now has approx. 50% ovals and 50% road/street races but the large leap in the area of street races is due to the merger more than anything else. If the merger had not happened the IRL would have had a 2008 schedule approx. 70% oval and 30% road/street.

To say the IRL suddenly changed direction because it feared the growing popularity of CC is silly.

For some reason it is always the IRL that made adjustments in the minds of those who believed the CCWS walked on water.
Here is the truth: They broke Gentalozzi, Kalkhoven, Forsythe and Petit were going to have to ante up close to $100,000,000 to stay afloat in 2008. Petit balked and Kalkhoven balked only Gerry wanted to stay the course. The IRL seeing a problem offered a carrot to the teams of free Chassis and Engines if they came over. That offer went to Kalkhoven who never bothered to pass it on to their car owners until it was leaked out by Robin Miller. This set up a division within the CCWS as nobody was running things and nobody knew what was going on.
They attempted to hold things together and demanded $100,000,000 from TG over the next 10 years as payment for their mistake of keeping the fight going. When that was shot down and promoters were told everything is fine, it leaked again that some teams had Dallaras.
Then the whole deal unraveled and the CCWS had to seek a deal. Wasn't easy but nobody could see the end of red ink in the CCWS and it needed to end.
It is funny that because of attendance there are those that believe the CCWS shows make money. A NASCAR weekend gets $2,500,000 million in Sponsorship for the track. I use that as a reference. A track like Edmonton costs $15,000,000 to do. This is everything. If they get $2,500,000 in Sponsorship then the show costs then $12,500,000. They make Friday free, lets say 50,000 show up. Total attendance is 182,000 so how does 132,000 pay for the $12,500,000? It doesn't.
IRL works differently, like CART did in the early 1990's. A show costs let's say Milwaukee $3,500,000. TV pays for $2,250,00. IRL sponsors, thoses dreaded Marlboro tickets, along with Firestone, Honda, 7-11 et al puts into the mix another $350,000. ABC puts up $450,000 and the net cost is $450,000. 50,000 buy a ticket on Saturday and Sunday so how much to pay for the show? $9.00 per ticket, if the track cost is 1.5 times then $23.50 to Break even.
So 50,000 makes a show a little money and 132,000 loses a show around $3,000,000. Interestingly both Sanction Fees are about the same, one goes down, the other stays put.

CART had a way of holding the line but as more and more of these Street Races came on, it became more and more expensive and eventually all of those that survived under Pook needed to be subsidized otherwise losses would have been too great.

[Chaparral66]

I'm not seeing why this is such a great post that it warranted being posted by anyone other than the original author, and he chose not to do so.

Rarely have I read such a load of blinkered rubbish on the internet, and that's saying something. Misinformed, biased, bereft of facts and oblivious to the actual chronological order of events - Albert D. Kallal's post is worthless.

That's a bit much, infox. While I don't agree with his view - and apparently, I'm not alone in this thread - he is free to express his opinion, even if it is presented here by SoCalVPguy, who had Kallal's blessing, as so indicated herein. That's the purpose of a forum like this, to give our opinions and see how we stand up to scrutiny, and Albert D. Kallal is no less entitled to do so than the rest of us. While we do not have the journalistic burden on us to provide evidence to back up what we say, most of us try to find it anyway, so we can feel satisfied we have presented a good case. Our opinions are very strong and stubbornly held onto, and none of us should expect less from so passionate a fan base. But that's what they are, opinions, excusing the lack of hard evidence. If you disagree, I strongly suggest you tell us why, as oppose to just throwing labels at it. It's perfectly acceptable to contribute viewpoints, even if lacking in that hard evidence, even if you go with just your gut. Nothing wrong with that. Just be prepared to answer to a challenge.

[weeflyonthewall]

I don't buy it.

The IRL did not change direction, because they were worried about CC. That's silly.

Look at CC itself. It changed direction almost every year of its short 4 year life. It started off as a series that would be like CART, but only have money making venues (no self-promotion).

Then it dropped its oval races and most of its road races to become the series of "urband festivals of speed". And of course "MotoRock"

Many of its races were losing money and the owners (KK and GF) had to buy out LB and Toronto and do many self-promotion and co-promotion events.

The street thing began to fail and suddenly CC was going to become more European. Racing on road courses in Europe.

All the time KK and GF were spending millions to keep the series alive and millions to keep it on TV in the US where ratings were dismal to say the least.

This is what Albert D. Kallal thinks frightened the IRL into action????

If you go back to the beginning of the IRL Tony George always said there would be road racing in the IRL's future. And they took the steps necessary to introduce road racing long ago. The IRL began working on a road race package back in 2004 and introduced road/street racing to the schedule in 2005, long before the DP01 ever came to life even on a drawing board.

Penske has been involved with revitalizing Detroit for many years he helped draw up a proposal for the Superbowl in 2005 and was a big part of the actual successful event in 2006. The idea of bringing back the Detroit IndyCar race wasn't a reaction to CC, but a continuation of Roger's commitment to both Indy Racing and Detroit.

The IRL now has approx. 50% ovals and 50% road/street races but the large leap in the area of street races is due to the merger more than anything else. If the merger had not happened the IRL would have had a 2008 schedule approx. 70% oval and 30% road/street.

To say the IRL suddenly changed direction because it feared the growing popularity of CC is silly.

Talk about fluff. Penske had his own agenda. Detroit was a big part of it. MA had his and St. Pete's is a big part of that.

[CCWS77]

If the lesson we learn from the "split" is that despite some divisions among fans there was never actually room for 2 series, 1 road courses and 1 oval...then the natural conclusion from that is that the only way this "merge" will work for the long term is if it can keep the fans from both sides. It needs a diverse schedule like CART did that can at least partially satisfy all the fans.

Operating from that basis it is hard to be optomistic about the future. Isnt it crystal clear all the changes TG made to his series that moved away from his original vision was only done to counter what Champ Car was doing? It was like a game tug-of-war with IRL on one side and CC on the other. When CC falls down why in the world are you assuming the IRL will take a principled stand in the middle instead of running back to thier original plan? If the tug-of-war ended in a handshake maybe it is true. but it didnt one side went flying into the mud. So we can wait and see. But it is a rediculous leap of faith to be happy and assume the IRL will take the middle position, ie compromise.


Here is another unfortunate way to look at open wheel that so many of you overlook. The IRL always had the Indianapolis 500. The IRL has been the defacto face, the first foot forward, the first impression of what Open wheel racing is to Americans for the last decade. You can't really try and claim the split was 50-50 or wheveter because that has always been true for as long as I can remeber. So what has changed in terms of the general image to the public that will attract the public in 2008? Is there something different about 2008 then 2007 that is going to cause the I500 to be huge this year? I follow this sport closely and I dont see it.

[Chaparral66]

If the lesson we learn from the "split" is that despite some divisions among fans there was never actually room for 2 series, 1 road courses and 1 oval...then the natural conclusion from that is that the only way this "merge" will work for the long term is if it can keep the fans from both sides. It needs a diverse schedule like CART did that can at least partially satisfy all the fans.

Operating from that basis it is hard to be optomistic about the future. Isnt it crystal clear all the changes TG made to his series that moved away from his original vision was only done to counter what Champ Car was doing? It was like a game tug-of-war with IRL on one side and CC on the other. When CC falls down why in the world are you assuming the IRL will take a principled stand in the middle instead of running back to thier original plan? If the tug-of-war ended in a handshake maybe it is true. but it didnt one side went flying into the mud. So we can wait and see. But it is a rediculous leap of faith to be happy and assume the IRL will take the middle position, ie compromise.


Here is another unfortunate way to look at open wheel that so many of you overlook. The IRL always had the Indianapolis 500. The IRL has been the defacto face, the first foot forward, the first impression of what Open wheel racing is to Americans for the last decade. You can't really try and claim the split was 50-50 or wheveter because that has always been true for as long as I can remeber. So what has changed in terms of the general image to the public that will attract the public in 2008? Is there something different about 2008 then 2007 that is going to cause the I500 to be huge this year? I follow this sport closely and I dont see it.

Having all the teams on the same track, with qualifying actually meaning something again will have some impact, CCWS77. That's already causing some buzz amongst the media, and there's been a lot of talk about it in these and other forums already. Some hard feelings will linger, but most are seeing the big picture. Let's see what happens with Indy this year, both in terms of media coverage, qualifying and raceday crowds, and TV ratings, to get an idea how this might be received. That should give an indication about where this is going.

[redunderthebed]

Its very simple there wasnt the room for two open wheel series and its stupid to have two series.I mean the people behind the two series lost but the sport itself won.Two series that offered the same thing basically looking in werent going to have the sponsors knocking down the door to put there hand in the pocket.We should not mourn the loss of either series as one series with a diverse schedule and equal sharing of power between old CCWS and IRL teams etc is the way.

[garyshell]

Its very simple there wasnt the room for two open wheel series and its stupid to have two series.I mean the people behind the two series lost but the sport itself won.Two series that offered the same thing basically looking in werent going to have the sponsors knocking down the door to put there hand in the pocket.We should not mourn the loss of either series as one series with a diverse schedule and equal sharing of power between old CCWS and IRL teams etc is the way.


You had me right up to the power sharing part. There is no power sharing. We have "...king George" in charge.

Gary

[ducatti748]

Waldo knows what he's talking about. He has it exactly right. The $100mm demand over 10 years was one of the deal points.

just my .02

[infoxicated]

If you disagree, I strongly suggest you tell us why, as oppose to just throwing labels at it. It's perfectly acceptable to contribute viewpoints, even if lacking in that hard evidence, even if you go with just your gut. Nothing wrong with that. Just be prepared to answer to a challenge.
okay.



I believe this significant change in management or philosophy, or direction of the IRL occurred not last year but the year before when it they really looked like champ car was going to take off big time. We had Katherine legge on all of the morning talk shows being interviewed about her crash at Road America. Not only that, but she was teamed up with Ford with a promotion to fight cancer for Women, and that was also making headlines, and was good PR.
And the IndyCar Series had Danica on all of the Evening talk shows the year before, making public appearances all over the place, throwing the first pitch at baseball games. She was on the front row at Indy in 2005, finishing the race in fourth, and causing a media storm that simply dewarfed any kind of attention Katherine Legge might have gotten for escaping a bad accident a year later. As anyone who Danica is and "she's that racecar driver" ask anyone who Legge is and "wasn't she the girl who had the crash?"

Yeah - I can see how Legge's publicity had the IRL running for their lives. The amount of head scratching, brow furrowing and hand wringing that must have gone on after Kat Legge's shunt must have been hard to comprehend. I guess the league just never seen a media tsunami like that coming - maybe they should have had Danica plough into a frickin' wall as a counter measure.

We also had Paul Tracy in the Media quite a bit. Be it his Golf cart accident, or the fight with Alex Tag, he was making the front page news big time. Furthermore that year PT had the big huge blowup in Montréal, and the famous picture of PT wearning a mask was plastered all over the newspapers and was front page news just about everywhere.
You mean PT was in the Racing media quite a bit. Certainly don't remember his making international front pages for crashing a golf cart.


In a way all of the above signs pointed to HUGE momentum for champ car. Champ car was poised to really start taking off.
Yep, that five year plan was really starting to take off... maybe if they hadn't still been cancelling events I'd believe you.

Furthermore, it was announced that the new car was being developed. Pictures and testing was starting to occur. In a sense champ car had arrived. There were also rumors that TG even flew to Panos, as they could not believe that champ car was actually going to build a new car.
What? Do you really believe that?

That TG "couldn't believe that Panoz were building a car they were being paid to build"?

Now that's delusional, it really is.

I believe all of the above observations are what kicked the IRL into high gear and was a serious wake up call into how they were managing the IRL.

They began to feel like their butt was being kicked.
Yes - riding the wave of Danicamania into 2006 and with a grandstand finish to the Indy 500 between Sam Hornish and Marco Andretti (which actually did make international news - I guess they were short of material since Paul Tracy hadn't crashed a golf cart in a while) - the IRL were really getting their butt kicked.

The IRL decided to start going back into street racing, they did things like drop Michigan, and introduced the Detroit auto race. Further Roger Penske poured in money to make sure the place was not a rat infested stink hole, but a first class event (more on RP later).
Absolute rubbish - Michigan didn't come off the schedule until this year -2008. Detroit didn't come onto the schedule until 2007, so your chronology is misguided at best.

If we’re going to have street festivals of speed, they were going to do street festivals.
You're close on that one - St Pete's was on the schedule in 2005 - you know, the year where Danica Patrick became famous without crashing into a wall. Yet you're suggesting the IRL added roads and streets as a result of the CCWS gaining momentum the following year. Again, chronology meet Mr. Albert D. Kallal.

If we were going to Road America, a natural terrain course, then the IRL was going to mid Ohio.
The IRL had been doing St Pete's, Watkins Glen, and Sears Point since 2005. Yet you still maintain they were added as a knee jerk reaction to Champ Car's 2006 "momentum". Good for you - I'll have a half of what you've been drinking - I hear it's good for degreasing engines.

The particular thing that the IRL had was the Indy 500, and we COULD NOT duplicate that event. So, you simply do everything that champ car does, and at the end of the day, they win because they have a product like champ car (or close enough), and champ car can not counter. Champ car had no response to the Indy 500. Their only strategy was to start a move into Europe. (KK knows this game too by the way!!).
Yes - track rentals in Europe. What a way to play the game. But you're right - without the Indy 500 Champ Car was doomed.

Champ car COULD have tried to counter with moving back into ovals, and that would have scared the hell out of the IRL, but without the 500 to make ovals matter, it would not been much of a counter punch.
Because the IRL was running scared that final year when both series raced Milwaukee - you could just tell by the attendance on the day that the place was packed solid for Champ Car... after all, they put on such a good show there :D

The simple fact of the matter is in any business competition and venture; you counter the competition and DO WHAT THEY do.
Strange - the IRL doesn't appear to have had a driver carousel, sponsors leaving in droves, and a sudden urge to go to Europe. I thought you said the IRL was copying the CCWS braintrust move for move?

[infoxicated]

In fact the IRL stuck to ovals, and champ moved towards the street and road courses and dropped ovals altogether. With all of the incredible momentum that champ car started to have, I suppose CCWS could’ve made CCWS work if the management hadn’t dropped the ball in so many places.
Hard to believe, isn't it - with quarter of a million showing up to watch practice (if CCWS audience figures are to be believed), it uncanny how if you even managed to charge those fans $20 to watch that day of practice you'd have $2 million in the bank right there, with Saturday and Sunday still to go. With those realistic audience figures they should have been raking in $10million for each and every street festival.

So what do we have here?

- The audience figures were lies.
- The audience weren't paying to see the event.
- The CCWS braintrust was using the series as a money laundering exersize.
- The audience figures were lies, the events were loss making, and there was no chance of Champ Car's 5 year plan ever succeeding.

Multi-choice - you choose Mr. Albert D. Kallal.


Even this year was poised to be a bleak year for the IRL. They lost Dario, they lost Sam Hornish, they lost Scott Sharp. The only bright spot was dancing on the stars, and Dankia, and Marco.
What?

Each and every year the CCWS lost half of the drivers on its grid - that's if they weren't replaced at certain events with other pay drivers (hello Mexico!). So you're telling me that the loss of Sam Hornish (Mr Personality) and a Scotsman racing in an american series was enough to bring the IndyCar Series to it's knees and fall to the power of Champ Car. No, please - you chug that Kool-aid for all you're worth.


There’s no question that some of us people did cry about the fact that the IRL lost their vision of ovals.

In business, it is simply is business! and the IRL simply gave up its vision that was not working. It seems a few years ago that CCWS spooked the IRL into changing their ways, or the IRL was going to die.

In a way, CCWS was a significant contribution to open will racing, because it forced the IRL to change its business model, give up its original vision, and become like CART and champ car.
You fail to add that the IRL added events that paid sanctioning fees and either broke even or made money, whilst the CCWS had a glut of events that did neither of those things... except for draw quarter of a million fantasy people who for whatever reason didn't pay to see the cars race.

Today we have a situation where we have a mix of street, ovals, Superspeedways. Now don’t this sititation for the IRL sound familiar?

I guess this means that champ car was right all along, since today were very much like we were twelve years ago, except we’re standing in the rubble of a huge war that occurred.
Wait, wait - CART was a successful formula. Champ Car wasn't right any of the time. How can you say that Champ Car was right all along when it ditched ovals, and now you're saying they're an important part of the mix.



This means that champ car efforts were not in vain, because while we lost the war, we did force the IRL to change to our vision, and that made the fight worth it.
Yeah - it was all in vain. It cost the owners a whole lot of money, it destroyed relationships with race promoters, it made a mockery of the sport, and just about the only one who could say that Champ Car was worth it is Sebastian Bourdais, because he laughed it all the way to the back of the F1 grid racing his way to about, what was it, eleventeen championships in a row?, against the ever changing driver line up of CCWS.

So your post is a crock of absolute kool-aid tainted BS. Your chronology is revisionist to suit your agenda, your interperetation of reality is skewed to do the same.

CHAMP CAR FAILED. It died. Tony George came to the frickin' rescue and Gerry Forsythe is crying his huge head to sleep on his huge pillow at night right now because it was all for NOTHING.

CART died. Champ Car was like Weekend at Bernies - entertainment derived from parading around a corpse. If Champ Car had never happened the sport would have been unified years ago and in a stronger place today because of it. CCWS = disaster for everyone involved.

[CCWS77]

Having all the teams on the same track, with qualifying actually meaning something again will have some impact, CCWS77. That's already causing some buzz amongst the media, and there's been a lot of talk about it in these and other forums already. Some hard feelings will linger, but most are seeing the big picture. Let's see what happens with Indy this year, both in terms of media coverage, qualifying and raceday crowds, and TV ratings, to get an idea how this might be received. That should give an indication about where this is going.

Yes but this is all like TG bought Champ Car, he has the assets in his hand now what is he doing with them? He is placing them all on the roulette wheel(located at INDY). By 2009 I think we may find we lost the bet and all that is left is what the IRL already had in 2007. The simple absense of CCWS is not enough to make IRL great. He needs to actually build something with the pieces.



Let's see what happens with Indy this year

I'M on a totally different page then you. I dont care about INDY, I care about the series. Caring so much about Indy is exaclty a damn repeat of how the split started! As long as it is the case that what matters is one race and the whole league just exists to promte that then this league is BROKEN. Maybe this will change but the fact that one of the first things everyone wants to measure is how this affects Indy tells me the whole league is on the wrong course already

[geek49203]

As it turned out, this was a strange card game, one where there was only one trump card. As it turned out, open-wheeled "Indy" style racing only works in the USA when it goes thru Indy. The rag-tag group of low-budget teams running junk at the mouse oval in Orlando ultimately beat the high-dollar teams running that same weekend in Miami because they had Indy. It's that simple.

Indy on its own is as big as the balance of the IRL season, or the entire CCWS season combined, perhaps worth as much as the rest of the CART season when the split occurred too. It's the one race that sponsors and PR people know about, and in modern racing, sponsorship is the thing that pays the bills.

[redunderthebed]

You had me right up to the power sharing part. There is no power sharing. We have "...king George" in charge.

Gary

Oh well s**t happens, i think it would of being fair if they had power sharing but if the series prosper i can tolerate a bit of totalitarianism.

I'm optimistic and looking forward to the new series should be great! :D

[!!WALDO!!]

Oh well s**t happens, i think it would of being fair if they had power sharing but if the series prosper i can tolerate a bit of totalitarianism.

I'm optimistic and looking forward to the new series should be great! :D


Very good, all successful Motor Sports are controled by a "dictator". The less successful ones are the ones that have a "club" mentality. This is where the members are the BoD or owners. These "groups" have to bounce everything off of everyone else. 13 members can kill things.
A "Dictator" tells his people what he wants thus it happens. Democracy or a "representive club" really does not work.

[CCWS77]

As it turned out, this was a strange card game, one where there was only one trump card. As it turned out, open-wheeled "Indy" style racing only works in the USA when it goes thru Indy. The rag-tag group of low-budget teams running junk at the mouse oval in Orlando ultimately beat the high-dollar teams running that same weekend in Miami because they had Indy. It's that simple.

Indy on its own is as big as the balance of the IRL season, or the entire CCWS season combined, perhaps worth as much as the rest of the CART season when the split occurred too. It's the one race that sponsors and PR people know about, and in modern racing, sponsorship is the thing that pays the bills.

I agree.

As long as this remains the case then the sport is broken and some element of the split will live on in fans who see thier local race and the week to week schedule of the series doesn't matter. We are full circle back to where we started before the split. Indy being all that general public knows about OW racing is a problem to be solved not an asset to be embraced.

Is TG going to fix that?

[BenRoethig]

I agree.

As long as this remains the case then the sport is broken and some element of the split will live on in fans who see thier local race and the week to week schedule of the series doesn't matter. We are full circle back to where we started before the split. Indy being all that general public knows about OW racing is a problem to be solved not an asset to be embraced.

Is TG going to fix that?

They know a lot about open wheel racing before the split, especially in the north and west.

[indycool]

Hindsight is 20-20. Pook spending $90 million to keep CART afloat in '03 should have told The Amigos something about the business. By '08, it did.

But the melding into one series, in itself, is a big step toward growth of the sport. It is not, in itself, a "microwave." There will be growth, but it will take a combination of initiatives ofver a period of time, some small and some larger. TV rating points will move up by tenths, not whole numbers, for example.

Helio dancing helps. Danica in SI helps. I hope Tracy scores a ride because he's the "character" the sport needs who isn't always PC. But every appearance, every autograph session helps. Time -- a long time -- will tell.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Hindsight is 20-20. Pook spending $90 million to keep CART afloat in '03 should have told The Amigos something about the business. By '08, it did.

But the melding into one series, in itself, is a big step toward growth of the sport. It is not, in itself, a "microwave." There will be growth, but it will take a combination of initiatives ofver a period of time, some small and some larger. TV rating points will move up by tenths, not whole numbers, for example.

Helio dancing helps. Danica in SI helps. I hope Tracy scores a ride because he's the "character" the sport needs who isn't always PC. But every appearance, every autograph session helps. Time -- a long time -- will tell.

IC, do you have some background in politics by any chance? I noticed you tend to generalize like the politicians do. Instead of 'I think it helps' you would just say 'It helps'. I am not sure resorting to cheap PR tricks helps the series. I used to be Helio's fan, for instance, but he started crying after each race and went shakin' his booty, my support of him kinda faded. Car racing is a tough sport, not your Hollywood drama.

[garyshell]

I used to be Helio's fan, for instance, but he started crying after each race and went shakin' his booty, my support of him kinda faded. Car racing is a tough sport, not your Hollywood drama.

Oh what a stinking load of ....

Are you saying that a tough guy can't be HUMAN? Please leave the machismo clichés out of this.

Gary

[indycool]

Helio also represented the entire motorsports world for 10 weeks with 20 million viewers per week and he and his partner defeated everyone in their path and won the competition. A bunch of people were introduced to a two-time Indy winner. Bad PR? Sheesh. Danica in SI would be in front of 69 million magazine buyers and something like 250 million online....essentially showing those millions that car racers aren't all Hell's Angels types. Bad PR? You can't be serious. These were offseason exposure opportunities for our participants. Big ones. I'm glad you noticed and if a fisherman says, "that girl looks neat, I'd like to see her drive" and buys a ticket to a race, great. And if Sadie in Nebraska watches Helio dance for 10 weeks and is curious and mystified that this guy drives a race car and decides to watch or go to a race, great.

[garyshell]

Helio also represented the entire motorsports world for 10 weeks with 20 million viewers per week and he and his partner defeated everyone in their path and won the competition. A bunch of people were introduced to a two-time Indy winner. Bad PR? Sheesh. Danica in SI would be in front of 69 million magazine buyers and something like 250 million online....essentially showing those millions that car racers aren't all Hell's Angels types. Bad PR? You can't be serious. These were offseason exposure opportunities for our participants. Big ones. I'm glad you noticed and if a fisherman says, "that girl looks neat, I'd like to see her drive" and buys a ticket to a race, great. And if Sadie in Nebraska watches Helio dance for 10 weeks and is curious and mystified that this guy drives a race car and decides to watch or go to a race, great.


IC, IC, IC we really have to stop agreeing like this! Whoever arranged for Helio to be on "Dancing With the Star" was BRILLIANT. It brought interest from an entirely new demographic. How anyone can possibly think this was a bad idea, is just beyond me. For ten freakin' weeks it put a REAL face on a driver. TEN WEEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That sort of exposure is huge, by anyone's measure.

Gary

[pits4me]

Very good, all successful Motor Sports are controled by a "dictator". The less successful ones are the ones that have a "club" mentality. This is where the members are the BoD or owners. These "groups" have to bounce everything off of everyone else. 13 members can kill things.
A "Dictator" tells his people what he wants thus it happens. Democracy or a "representive club" really does not work.


I hope you don't mean a club menatllity like SCCA Pro Racing or SCRAMP. There is a big difference between those organizations and what we're talking about. Whatever you do, don't sell Andretti, Penske, Ganassi or Rahal short here. This "representative club" has been guiding the dictator slowly away from the ideology he first started the IRL with. Guess what -- it really does work. Scott Atherton is living proof.

While the IRL may still be Indycentric, the fact they now have their own stable of "turn right and left" events puts things closer to a democratic playing field.

I was recently asked who the fox in the chicken house will be. Some say he has an Australian accent.Only time will tell.

[indycool]

"Democratic?" What does that have to do with anything?

[Chaparral66]

Yes but this is all like TG bought Champ Car, he has the assets in his hand now what is he doing with them? He is placing them all on the roulette wheel(located at INDY). By 2009 I think we may find we lost the bet and all that is left is what the IRL already had in 2007. The simple absense of CCWS is not enough to make IRL great. He needs to actually build something with the pieces.

Well, of course. As Kalkhoven said, the merger in and of itself is no magic bullet. Needs to build something? Of course, that's what I, IC, and many others have been saying since the merger was announced. The success of the new venture will take a long time, with sound planning and good judgement, and a high regard for the fans. Not sure what the point is here.


I'M on a totally different page then you. I dont care about INDY, I care about the series. Caring so much about Indy is exaclty a damn repeat of how the split started! As long as it is the case that what matters is one race and the whole league just exists to promte that then this league is BROKEN. Maybe this will change but the fact that one of the first things everyone wants to measure is how this affects Indy tells me the whole league is on the wrong course already

You obviously misjudged my comment about "Let's see what happens at Indy this year" by cutting it off and leaving the overly simplistic impression that the success of Indy is the sole means of gauging the success of the series. Wrong. My proper quote is as follows:

Let's see what happens with Indy this year, both in terms of media coverage, qualifying and raceday crowds, and TV ratings, to get an idea how this might be received. That should give an indication about where this is going.

That is what I said, and that is pretty clear, it seems to me, about how this year's Indy 500 can be a measuring stick as to how the new series will be received by the public and the media, and also as an indication if the series has a viable future. It's not that the Indy 500 is the end all and be all of the series, but it is a very important part of the series, if the not THE most important part. The point here is that the series compliments the Indy 500, and vice versa, just like the Daytona 500 works with the Sprint Cup schedule. If you take one away from the other, niether works as well. Champ Car's series event was Long Beach, though not on the same level.

And yes, I do care about Indy. Throughout the whole time of the split, I cared. I cared a great deal what the split was doing to it and how it lost ground to NASCAR's Daytona 500. The new series simply won't work on the level it needs to without a strong Indy 500, with suspensful qualifying with the storylines that go along with that, drawing interest into the championship with all the teams together. You simply can't seperate the Indy 500 from the series as a whole, they are locked together by racing blood, sweat, and tears.

[Albert D. Kallal]

okay.
Yeah - I can see how Legge's publicity had the IRL running for their lives.

I did not say running for their lives. Geesh, lets not get silly here. You are FAR too twisted up here. Take a pill. All I said was she made a significant amount of press coverage. And she did. That included most morning talk shows, and even Ellen’s Degen's morning show.

Also, teaming up with Ford and cancer for women was a great thing also.



You mean PT was in the Racing media quite a bit. Certainly don't remember his making international front pages for crashing a golf cart.
We can play a game of semantics here. Just because people don’t repost your writings on the internet, you don’t have to get all wound up like a two year in diapers crying here. No need for you to get all too jealous and envious of people who actually have their posts copied and discussed on *several* forums on the internet.

The fact matter is is Paul Tracy was regularly making news coverage in lot of newspapers, both in racing, and non racing in major newspapers. PT’s Montreal stunt was a great example of this. There was a lot of coverage on this in the press, both Canadian newspapers and others. In fact the national post (or was it the Financial post) had PT win in Cleavland as front page news. It had been several years since I seen a regular newspapers carry wins of Paul Tracy on the front page news, and this was NOT just racing newspapers.

It was certainly a big deal for a canadiin national newpaper to make this front page news in NON racing media.



That TG "couldn't believe that Panoz were building a car they were being paid to build"?



I find your attitude misquoting me morally reprehensible and disgusting on your part. I did not say Panoz, I said champ car. That is a GRAND cayon of difference. It was CCWS that surprised them, not Panzo. Once they found out it was obvious they're going to Panos where the car is being built.

The quote I had on this matter was the following:



There were also rumors that TG even flew to Panos, as they could not believe that champ car was actually going to build a new car.
I CLEARLY stated it was a rumor. If you don’t think it was a surprise to the IRL that champ car was actually going to build a new car, then I can’t help you.

If you’re going to debate me on the rumor of Tony George flying to see if the car was actually going to be built, then I have zero problems you debating, or disagreeing with that rumor. It you think this is a stupid rumor, then again I don’t have any beef with you. Once again you’re complete 100% intellectually failed to understand the significance of that rumor.

The fact that Tony George did, or did not fly is 100% moot!!! It is an absolute moot point, yet you stand here and tell me that that rumor is absurd! Once again you’re completely missing the point, and the boat has left the harbor here. It is not the fact that this rumor is true, or it’s widely hysterically stupid. Here, I will help you comprehend the point being made here:

The point here is fact that the **RUMOR** was making the rounds, not that the fact that the rumor was true or not!! The fact the matter is that the creation of the new car was causing a stir in the whole open wheel industry, and it even stirred up rumors people in the IRL flying to take a look at the supposed car.

You can try to argue this both ways, on the one hand you’re saying that everybody thought champ car was a road to nowhere, is full of crap, and is not accomplishing anything. Then, all the sudden you’re telling me they’re building a new car is not a big deal? Do you see the Hypocrisy of this position?

If champ cars was such a mess, no one believes in it, and it’s actually going nowhere, then why on earth would they be building a new car then? Does that help your understanding on this issue?

Without question building of a new car represented even a further diversion between the two series, and a move that surprised a lot of people in the open wheel business.

As I also pointed out this was just another issue of momentum, and public perception of what was happening with champ car. I will be the first to admit that the beginning of last season destroyed MOST ALL of that credibility and momentum.

However the crappy start of last season changes nothing in that building a new car was a tremendous issue in terms of building momentum and future direction for champ car (at that time!). I find it absolutely astounding you’re trying to stand here and tell me that the announcement of a new car was not a significant issue in building momentum and future direction of champ car. Simply an unbelievable attitude on your part on this particular issue!

The idea that you’ve given an intelligent and intellectually well thought out response by telling me it was a lame rumor is simply not the point at all.
It is absolutely laughable on the hysterical to your part that you think the “fact” of TG flying to panoz is an actual intellectual point on my part, and your questioning as to the TG flight occuring somehow disparages the whole concept of what I was staying here. You’re going to have to try a little bit harder, and make more efforts to understand my points.

Now just because you don’t like the rumor or you disagree with the rumor, or you think it’s a stupid rumor changes absolutely NOTHING in what I said here, zero…nata. The rumor DID make the rounds on forums, bad, good, true, or false or stupid…but it did occur. Got it? now was that too difficult for you?



Absolute rubbish - Michigan didn't come off the schedule until this year -2008. Detroit didn't come onto the schedule until 2007, so your chronology is misguided at best.


Well, how long do you think it puts takes to put a race and the wheels in motion? You think they decide at the start of a month to have a race, and at the end of the month the race appears magically out of thin air? Right, got it! Try thinking this through a little bit harder next time ..ok?

Just exactly how long do you think the planning and arrangements for the Detroit auto race took place?

And furthermore I brought up the sample of Detroit, because Detroit was the exact model of a festival of speed that champ car had been doing for several years. Once again, I thought it was quite obvious that Detroit was one of those festival of speeds. I guess once again I have to spell it out for you.

The wheels in motion and decisions to bring the Detroit race occurred VERY much earlier then when the actual race takes. Furthermore I specifically used the Detroit race, because bringing back the Detroit race was very much the brainchild of Roger Penske. I don’t suppose that you didn’t connect the dots between the fact that I said I believe that Roger Penske had a change in the hand of the IRL’s direction here?

I used the Detroit race to support that my speculation that RP had a hand in this change. And, save your nose get twisted up here, It was speculation here on my part.



St Pete's was on the schedule in 2005 - you know, the year where Danica Patrick became famous without crashing into a wall. Yet you're suggesting the IRL added roads and streets as a result of the CCWS gaining momentum the following year. Again, chronology meet Mr. Albert D. Kallal.


I pointed out the IRL did have a significant change in its direction, and yes we not just talking about one year of momentum. It is YOU now again trying to restrict this to only one year here. I NEVER limted this change to ONLY the one year in CCWS, but I most certainly DID claim that year was significant. We can only speculate, but even stunts like dancing on stars may have occurred more than a year or even earlier in planning here. However I NEVER in no way shape or form limited this change and reaction by the IRL to ONE year. Got it?



and a sudden urge to go to Europe. I thought you said the IRL was copying the CCWS braintrust move for move?If you’d bothered to read my post, you will see that I said the move into Europe was really because the IRL was pushing into the territory and marketplace that CCWS had. I stated this was simply a move by champ car being forced into greener pastures that the IRL was not working into.

In fact I'm even willing to speculate that if this battle continued, we would have seen the IRL move into other countries. It was around that time frame that there were rumbelings of the IRL going into both Mexico and Canada. My point here was that the IRL was simply countering every move the champ car was making, and moving into simular markets was also part of this issue. So, yes the IRL was considering moving into other international marketplaces, and that also was widely speculated.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[indycool]

Albert,

Although I'd prefer we all went the direction of the future, guess that may not happen for awhile, so:

1. The real truth about TG going to Panoz' shop was that TG and Barnhart were INVITED down to take a look at the cars. This could've been for various reasons. This could have been to look at safety features. This could have been an inducement to include Panoz as a manufacturer of the IRL's new car as it was the last. No, I don't have a link, but it squealed out that way,

2. The street races the IRL has are absolutely NOT modeled after CC's "Festivals of Speed." AGR Promotions went into the St. Pete deal with heavy sponsorship from Honda and a lineup of associates. Penske went into Detroit with heavy sponsorship for it as a local charity event. The events were financially solid, unlike CC's Denver, San Jose and Las Vegas events. Sponsorship was solidified before the events went on the schedule.

3. Someone -- who, I have no clue -- convinced The Amigos that a new car was going to be the "trick" that soared CC o'er the ramparts. It was so heavily promoted by CC that you'd think the thing was a new space shuttle. Now, after the Motorock strategy, the Asian strategy, the street race strategy having failed more often than not, here's this new race car, a rear-engine formula car just like every other rear-engine formula car to anybody watching on TV. The expense of that -- and misreading the potential ticket-buying, TV-watching public again -- went a long way to the European strategy, the fourth or fifth strategy in five years, that never got out of the box. There are few magic wands in this world. The Amigos didn't find one, either.

[grungex]

2. The street races the IRL has are absolutely NOT modeled after CC's "Festivals of Speed."

This is quite possibly the most ludicrous statement you have ever posted. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[CCWS77]

And yes, I do care about Indy. Throughout the whole time of the split, I cared. I cared a great deal what the split was doing to it and how it lost ground to NASCAR's Daytona 500. The new series simply won't work on the level it needs to without a strong Indy 500, with suspensful qualifying with the storylines that go along with that, drawing interest into the championship with all the teams together. You simply can't seperate the Indy 500 from the series as a whole, they are locked together by racing blood, sweat, and tears.

What a strange post. First you try to convince me it is NOT all about Indy and I am out of line to suggest it and then you follow that up with the above paragraph which says, oh by the way Indy is what I care about and if it isnt strong the series "simply wont work".

There really is no need to even argue about how important Indy is currently. It had like a 4.0 TV rating or something like this correct? My point is the way forward for the league is not to put all energy into getting that to be a 12.0 rating for that one race. It is to work to get all the races to the same 4.0 the Indy has. If you can not agree with this then you do not truely have the best interest of the series or open wheel racing in your mind. I'm not going to label if I think you feel that way or not because it doesnt matter. The point is how does TG feel about it? He has already proved he will run a scorched earth campaign on the sport for a decade if he thinks it will help Indy 500.

Frankly I wish TG would run the Indy 500 however he wants once a year and not even waste everyone's time surrounding it with any kind of a league that apparently doesnt matter. Then everyone can do thier Indy-centric thing every may and he can leave whoever else wants to run a non-indy series alone instead of trying to put them out of buisness for another 13 years.

[indycool]

grungex, the BUSINESS side. Meaning sponsorship and financial sense. And no flim-flam sales pitches to cities that 150,000 people would float into their towns for the event.

[Chaparral66]

What a strange post. First you try to convince me it is NOT all about Indy and I am out of line to suggest it and then you follow that up with the above paragraph which says, oh by the way Indy is what I care about and if it isnt strong the series "simply wont work".

You obviously didn't read it very carefully. I didn't try to convince you it is NOT all about Indy, or that it was. This is what I said, again, a direct quote from earlier in the thread:


It "is pretty clear, it seems to me, about how this year's Indy 500 can be a measuring stick as to how the new series will be received by the public and the media, and also as an indication if the series has a viable future. It's not that the Indy 500 is the end all and be all of the series, but it is a very important part of the series, if the not THE most important part. The point here is that the series compliments the Indy 500, and vice versa, just like the Daytona 500 works with the Sprint Cup schedule. If you take one away from the other, niether works as well. Champ Car's series event was Long Beach, though not on the same level."


I don't think I can get much clearer than that. It's not that it's all about Indy or that it should be, it's that the Indy 500 is a big part of any merged open wheel series. Indeed, a very big part, perhaps the biggest, but still just a part. It all has to work together. And I never even implied you were out of line for suggesting anything, although I might have that attitude toward you for mischaracterizing what I was saying. And I never said that the series "simply won't work" all by itself if the Indy 500 isn't strong; my point was that for it would work as well as it needs to, it needs a strong Indy 500. Big difference. Example? Both CCWS and the IRL survived all these years without a strong Indy 500, but how much fun was that? I think most all of us can agree that the race had gone downhill throughout the time of the split; but with everyone on the same track again, both the Indy 500 and the new series can grow, together, in a way it couldn't while the sport was at war.

Again, my own quote:

The new series simply won't work on the level it needs to without a strong Indy 500, with suspensful qualifying with the storylines that go along with that, drawing interest into the championship with all the teams together. You simply can't seperate the Indy 500 from the series as a whole, they are locked together by racing blood, sweat, and tears.

If you're going to paraphrase me, CCWS77, please read what I write carefully and try to get the gist of it better. Selective editing of quotes for the purpose of slanting another's viewpoint a certain way without proper foundation isn't (ironic pause here) cutting it.

[!!WALDO!!]

Albert,

Although I'd prefer we all went the direction of the future, guess that may not happen for awhile, so:

1. The real truth about TG going to Panoz' shop was that TG and Barnhart were INVITED down to take a look at the cars. This could've been for various reasons. This could have been to look at safety features. This could have been an inducement to include Panoz as a manufacturer of the IRL's new car as it was the last. No, I don't have a link, but it squealed out that way,

2. The street races the IRL has are absolutely NOT modeled after CC's "Festivals of Speed." AGR Promotions went into the St. Pete deal with heavy sponsorship from Honda and a lineup of associates. Penske went into Detroit with heavy sponsorship for it as a local charity event. The events were financially solid, unlike CC's Denver, San Jose and Las Vegas events. Sponsorship was solidified before the events went on the schedule.

3. Someone -- who, I have no clue -- convinced The Amigos that a new car was going to be the "trick" that soared CC o'er the ramparts. It was so heavily promoted by CC that you'd think the thing was a new space shuttle. Now, after the Motorock strategy, the Asian strategy, the street race strategy having failed more often than not, here's this new race car, a rear-engine formula car just like every other rear-engine formula car to anybody watching on TV. The expense of that -- and misreading the potential ticket-buying, TV-watching public again -- went a long way to the European strategy, the fourth or fifth strategy in five years, that never got out of the box. There are few magic wands in this world. The Amigos didn't find one, either.

Very good post and that is the way it came down except in the minds of those who hate TG. The old Bathroom Walls out of Indy had the grungex spin that TG was surrendering.

Economic is missing here. Since I know nothing about anything it is my turn to kick over the e-hive.
Funny thing is I get insulted but when I spent all day going over things from my promotion days about insurance, the powers lock the thread.
So I wasted time to point out that three different Insurance Underwriters have to agree in these "public" races.

Oh well, more economics of lawsuits that could get in the way if something happens on the streets somewhere.

[Chaparral66]

There really is no need to even argue about how important Indy is currently. It had like a 4.0 TV rating or something like this correct? My point is the way forward for the league is not to put all energy into getting that to be a 12.0 rating for that one race. It is to work to get all the races to the same 4.0 the Indy has. If you can not agree with this then you do not truely have the best interest of the series or open wheel racing in your mind. I'm not going to label if I think you feel that way or not because it doesnt matter. The point is how does TG feel about it? He has already proved he will run a scorched earth campaign on the sport for a decade if he thinks it will help Indy 500.

Frankly I wish TG would run the Indy 500 however he wants once a year and not even waste everyone's time surrounding it with any kind of a league that apparently doesnt matter. Then everyone can do thier Indy-centric thing every may and he can leave whoever else wants to run a non-indy series alone instead of trying to put them out of buisness for another 13 years.

I think if Our Good Friend Tony George has learned anything about the managment of an open wheel racing series, is that is can't be about solely one event, as important as that event might be. NASCAR certainly knows this; while The Daytona 500 is it's most high profile and prestigious event, they could not, and have not, ignored the rest of the schedule. While some ball & stick guys wonder why NASCAR's Super Bowl is the first race, it's history shows that this formula works. We could debate in the NASCAR forum how NASCAR has done more harm than good in changing certain things about its 36 race marathon, they have always realized that its marquee event sets the tone for the rest of the season.

I also think TG has realized, along with The Amigos, for the most part, that an American Open Wheel series must support The Indy 500, and vice versa. You simply can't have a real honest discussion about open wheel and its future without including The Indy 500. Even during the split, those of us who took opposite sides of the divide couldn't ignore that race. If you can't agree on that, than you ignore the sport's history, legends, and traditions. But then, I'm not going to tell you how to think.

It will be a LONG time before The Indy 500 gets a 12.0 rating. Lucky it gets a 4.0 right now. But you should understand that The Indy 500 will always get better ratings than the series' other races, much in the way that The Daytona 500 gets better ratings than Sprint Cup's other races. Trying to get the ICS event in Kansas the same ratings as The Indy 500 is a lost cause; the I500 will always pull in the most viewers. But what you can hope for is that if the I500 ratings improve, so will, in porportion, the rest of the races TV numbers. That helps get more sponsors involved, knowing that the series as a whole is growing as is the Spectacle on Memorial Day Weekend. That, IMHO, is a realistic set of expectations.

As for TG just running his race at IMS and staying out of the rest of the series, whether it's his deal or someone else's, well I think we all know that ain't gonna happen, don't we? Might as well accept this and see what he does with it. History will be the final judge.

[grungex]

The old Bathroom Walls out of Indy had the grungex spin that TG was surrendering.

Why do you keep posting lies about my opinions? It's bad enough you are a completely clueless lemming, but spreading blatant falsehoods about other posters is crossing the line. If you were a real man you would apologize, but I doubt you possess the attachments.

[CCWS77]

The new series simply won't work on the level it needs to without a strong Indy 500




And I never said that the series "simply won't work" all by itself if the Indy 500 isn't strong;


I dont need a lecture about how to engage in clear communication from somone playing word games. Thanks


I think if Our Good Friend Tony George has learned anything about the managment of an open wheel racing series, is that is can't be about solely one event, as important as that event might be.

faith :vader:



I also think TG has realized, along with The Amigos, for the most part, that an American Open Wheel series must support The Indy 500, and vice versa. You simply can't have a real honest discussion about open wheel and its future without including The Indy 500. Even during the split, those of us who took opposite sides of the divide couldn't ignore that race. If you can't agree on that, than you ignore the sport's history, legends, and traditions. But then, I'm not going to tell you how to think.

I know people disagree with me on this and that is fine, but by not explicity, purposley and dramatically ignoring the I500 is exactly why CCWS and CART could not get anywhere. It is absurd to be labeled the Indy cars that don't race at Indy and still be HQ there 13 years later. Stupid! As long as that was percieved as the case of course it would always be seen as lesser then IRL to sponsors. The neverending overatures and attempts to somehow have participation from the other side in the I500 was a show of weakness which should have been stamped out not embraced if they were actually going to make it on thier own. Wasn't anyone working in marketing the past decade over there or what?

Just because the split is now over does not mean the attitute that Indy is what is so important is suddenly a healthy way to run the sport!


Trying to get the ICS event in Kansas the same ratings as The Indy 500 is a lost cause; the I500 will always pull in the most viewers. But what you can hope for is that if the I500 ratings improve, so will, in porportion, the rest of the races TV numbers.

We can agree that effectively the I500 will always be higher, sure. but you are dancing around the important issue. Are we using the series as a tool to improve the one race or are we using the one race to bring in fans for the whole series? Your first thought might be, well who cares as long as it improves, but really this is an important question because it speaks volumes about how the league will run and what will happen in the future.

Here is an unfortunate way to look at it which Im sure people wont want to hear and will stick thier head in the sand. What if the Indy 500 is obsolete? Furthermore what if it is precisely the OW community's obsession with that race (on both sides of the split!) that has dragged down the sport! Heresy? yes Is it possibly true? yes Perhaps that purpose built automobiles can go 200 miles an hour on a purpose built oval raceways simply is not impressive to technologically savy citizenry circa 2008. Perhaps the entire buisness model is based on the past not the future. Perhaps OW racing has put its worst foot forward for the past decade. Now with the split over I fear that mistake will be redoubled instead of fixed.

[grungex]

The old Bathroom Walls out of Indy had the grungex spin that TG was surrendering.

I never said this, or anything like it. I expect an apology.

[!!WALDO!!]

I never said this, or anything like it. I expect an apology.


An apology for what? Describing the type of spin on another site? Exactly what you said was said over there a year ago.


This is quite possibly the most ludicrous statement you have ever posted. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

I will give you an apology if you stop coming after everyone. You are damaging my enjoyment of this place.

[Chaparral66]

I dont need a lecture about how to engage in clear communication from somone playing word games. Thanks

What word games? That's insane. CCWS, my communication was very clear. You don't have to agree with it, but don't mischaracterrize it to the point of virtually mis-quoting me. Use my entire quote, as oppose to cherry picking a lone sentnece, to give proper perspective, or don't use it at all.


faith :vader:

Maybe, but right now, not alot other options. It's now Tony's deal, hopefully he and the IRL can make it work.



I know people disagree with me on this and that is fine, but by not explicity, purposley and dramatically ignoring the I500 is exactly why CCWS and CART could not get anywhere. It is absurd to be labeled the Indy cars that don't race at Indy and still be HQ there 13 years later. Stupid! As long as that was percieved as the case of course it would always be seen as lesser then IRL to sponsors. The neverending overatures and attempts to somehow have participation from the other side in the I500 was a show of weakness which should have been stamped out not embraced if they were actually going to make it on thier own. Wasn't anyone working in marketing the past decade over there or what?

Chris Pook took care of that by naming them Champ Cars before The Amigos cames in. That is how they were distinguished from the Indy (IRL) Cars. Not saying that worked, but that was CART's solution to the ID issue.

On merging: Many on both sides saw how ridiculous and damaging the split was becoming and wanted to end it ASAP. They can't be faulted for that, and their foresight is unquestionable.Think of where we'd be now if those attempts to end the war were successful. And we don't have to get into CCWS' marketing fiascos such as Motorock, that's a matter of record.

Just because the split is now over does not mean the attitute that Indy is what is so important is suddenly a healthy way to run the sport!

For the third time, I never said that The Indy 500 was the sole means for trying to grow the sport. I don't think anyone else that I have seen has made that assertion either. My assertion is you have to have both working together and growing together if the sport can rebuild from 12 years worth of damage from a pointless conflict. My assertion is that the new series can grow around a reinvograted Indy 500, and the Indy 500 can benefit from a growing series. But the individual Indy 500 event is not the only thing from you grow the sport, you need healthy and well promoted events from it schedule to attract sponsors and fans. It all has to work together. Just putting resources into the I500, or, just putting resources in the ICS schedule other than Indy, will not work, in my opinion. It all has to work together. Now, having said that, Indy is one of the most important, if not THE most important, elements in making the series successful. That would also include, Long Beach, going back to Michigan and Fontana, Road America and Laguna Seca, Texas, Milwaukee, and Cleveland, to name just a few. We also have to do something about these ICS cars, we need a clean sheet of paper for 2010.

We can agree that effectively the I500 will always be higher, sure. but you are dancing around the important issue. Are we using the series as a tool to improve the one race or are we using the one race to bring in fans for the whole series? Your first thought might be, well who cares as long as it improves, but really this is an important question because it speaks volumes about how the league will run and what will happen in the future.

See my comment above.

Here is an unfortunate way to look at it which Im sure people wont want to hear and will stick thier head in the sand. What if the Indy 500 is obsolete? Furthermore what if it is precisely the OW community's obsession with that race (on both sides of the split!) that has dragged down the sport! Heresy? yes Is it possibly true? yes Perhaps that purpose built automobiles can go 200 miles an hour on a purpose built oval raceways simply is not impressive to technologically savy citizenry circa 2008. Perhaps the entire buisness model is based on the past not the future. Perhaps OW racing has put its worst foot forward for the past decade. Now with the split over I fear that mistake will be redoubled instead of fixed.

One thing that is consistent with race fans the world over: Tradition rules. That's why we will always have an Indy 500; that's why we will always have a Daytona 500; That's why we will always have The Grand Prix of Monoco; That's why we will always have endurance races at Daytona with the Rolex 24, and at Sebring with the 12 Hours of Sebring, and of course, The 24 Hours of Le Mans (my personal favorite). If these races were to go away, the soul of the sport would be damaged almost to the point of non-repair. These legendary events have so embodied the sport, it would be like taking away The World Cup of soccer (football). That would be unthinkable. Better to keeping working to make the racing safer in a place like Indy than just making it disappear. The hole that would leave would be much bigger than any turf war could hope to make.

[garyshell]

An apology for what? Describing the type of spin on another site? Exactly what you said was said over there a year ago.



I will give you an apology if you stop coming after everyone. You are damaging my enjoyment of this place.


Oh, maybe an apology for putting words in his mouth. And YOU of all people are calling him out for coming after everyone? Apparently he isn't damaging your enjoyment enough.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

I will give you an apology if you stop coming after everyone. You are damaging my enjoyment of this place.

ROFLMAO!!

[ShiftingGears]

I dont need a lecture about how to engage in clear communication from somone playing word games. Thanks


There is a difference between "Simply won't work" and "simply won't work on the level it needs to".

[Chaparral66]

There is a difference between "Simply won't work" and "simply won't work on the level it needs to".

Thank you, theugsquirrel. You literary comprehension becomes you. :)

[Dave Brock]

One thing that is consistent with race fans the world over: Tradition rules..

I was sayin that to myseff just the other night
:rolleyes: when I passed Ascot
on my way out to Riverside for the Can-Am test session
before the Mesa Marin street stock Extravaganza of Speed.
Tradition doesn't rule fool
itz da money & oil whot makes us jump
like a whip to a Mule.
Thank God Indy is an exception
THATS what makes it so cool.

[indycool]

CCWS77, is Indy using the series to benefit Indy or Indy to benefit the series?

Both, obviously.

[grungex]

Oh, maybe an apology for putting words in his mouth. And YOU of all people are calling him out for coming after everyone? Apparently he isn't damaging your enjoyment enough.

Gary

Thank you, Gary, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[garyshell]

Thank you, Gary, I couldn't have said it better myself.


No problem. His comment really ***** me off. I don't suffer fools or blowhards very well. And I don't suffer blowhard fools at all.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

I was sayin that to myseff just the other night
:rolleyes: when I passed Ascot
on my way out to Riverside for the Can-Am test session
before the Mesa Marin street stock Extravaganza of Speed.
Tradition doesn't rule fool
itz da money & oil whot makes us jump
like a whip to a Mule.
Thank God Indy is an exception
THATS what makes it so cool.

As good as Can-Am was, and it was VERY good, it didn't have a marquee event on the level of Indy, Daytona, or Le Mans. And while your point about money & oil is well taken, events like Indy are beyond money's influence. Daytona doesn't have a title sponsor because NASCAR really doesn't need one (they have plenty of sponsors supporting this race), and changing the name in any way to accomodate a sponsor might have some adverse impact on the fans' devotion to it. Hence, it will always be known as The Daytona 500 (those rules do not apply to races like the Allstate [Brickyard] 400). Again, tradition. Same thing goes for Indy, as weakened as it is. Indy still draws plenty of sponsor interest (I'll grant you that IC, I've never denied it), as does Le Mans. Tradition keeps the integrity of the title of these great events intact, and will continue to do so. Having said that, tradition is just that, tradition, which is a customary way of doing things. It is not absolute, as we were so often reminded throughout the time of the open wheel split.

[Chaparral66]

Another example of how breaking a cherished tradition is when CART/CCWS changed the date of the race at Laguna Seca, and the dropoff in attendence that followed it.

[CCWS77]

CCWS77, is Indy using the series to benefit Indy or Indy to benefit the series?

Both, obviously.

Look I'm not trying to pick a fight with Chaparral66, but I want to thank you for simply awnsering the question in one sentence.

My response is: what a total copout. You guys want to have it both ways. I pointed out the quotes he said about how Indy is so important and get it shoved in my face that I am twisting words because you decide to take "both" sides of the issue and thus have counter quotes to your own quotes.

If the IRL isnt run and promoted in a way that the series points awarded to a driver who becomes the champion at the end of the year is the most important thing then the league is doomed to irrelevancy. There is really no room for equivocations or double speak about how there can be multiple things that are important. Sure there can, but pick one! If you want to defend TG on faith that he gets this and the I500 isnt the center of the universe then fine, but Im not with you untl I see it.

All of you talking about tradition remind me of the lunatic historic associations which halt all economic progress in thier historic zones in order to make sure we keep the old eyesore buildings that are falling apart. Noone can change or upgrade junk because it is historic. great

[indycool]

Well, just why wouldn't the Hulman Co., which owns both and funds both, want both to succeed?

[Chaparral66]

Look I'm not trying to pick a fight with Chaparral66, but I want to thank you for simply awnsering the question in one sentence.

My response is: what a total copout. You guys want to have it both ways. I pointed out the quotes he said about how Indy is so important and get it shoved in my face that I am twisting words because you decide to take "both" sides of the issue and thus have counter quotes to your own quotes.



CCWS77, please explain to me how I can have "counter" quotes, if I understand you correctly, to my own quotes, when all I did was repeat the same quotes to emphasize my points to you? Please go back and look at them, then compare them with my earlier posts. The quotes were taken directly from the original posts to make clear to you what I said. It's all there, dude. And I'm not taking both sides of the issue, because there is no 2 sides to take. The IRL simply considers both the Indy 500 and the series championship to be equally important to ensure the sport's success; that's all one single viewpoint. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand, but that's the deal.

[Chaparral66]

If the IRL isnt run and promoted in a way that the series points awarded to a driver who becomes the champion at the end of the year is the most important thing then the league is doomed to irrelevancy. There is really no room for equivocations or double speak about how there can be multiple things that are important. Sure there can, but pick one! If you want to defend TG on faith that he gets this and the I500 isnt the center of the universe then fine, but Im not with you untl I see it.


Anytime you manage a business like the IRL, it simply goes without saying that the business has multiple goals to achieve for success. As IC said, the IRL wants both the Indy Car Series and the Indy 500 to be successful. That's the big picture, that's just common sense.

[Dave Brock]

As good as Can-Am was, and it was VERY good, it didn't have a marquee event on the level of Indy, Daytona, or Le Mans. And while your point about money & oil is well taken, events like Indy are beyond money's influence. Daytona doesn't have a title sponsor because NASCAR really doesn't need one (they have plenty of sponsors supporting this race), and changing the name in any way to accomodate a sponsor might have some adverse impact on the fans' devotion to it. Hence, it will always be known as The Daytona 500 (those rules do not apply to races like the Allstate [Brickyard] 400). Again, tradition. Same thing goes for Indy, as weakened as it is. Indy still draws plenty of sponsor interest (I'll grant you that IC, I've never denied it), as does Le Mans. Tradition keeps the integrity of the title of these great events intact, and will continue to do so. Having said that, tradition is just that, tradition, which is a customary way of doing things. It is not absolute, as we were so often reminded throughout the time of the open wheel split.


Readin my trash, paying attention to what I say or actual expertise on your part, either way, we're on the same side of the track...waitin for the season to begin.

[Chaparral66]

All of you talking about tradition remind me of the lunatic historic associations which halt all economic progress in thier historic zones in order to make sure we keep the old eyesore buildings that are falling apart. Noone can change or upgrade junk because it is historic. great

You've got to be kidding me. Junk? While the Indy 500 was damaged during the split to the point of barely having it's traditional 33 cars race ( a reality getting riskier and riskier with every passing year) and fans buying tickets on raceday (yikes), as anti-IRL as I had been over the years, even I - and most others on the CART/CCWS side - would hardly call the Indy 500 "junk". As bad as it got, this race still drew fans and sponsors, and still made the newscasts. How long that would have gone if not for the merger is anybody's guess, but we're nowhere near the point of calling it junk. There are now twice as many people as there were just two weeks ago who have a vested interest in seeing this race get back to its former glory, and with that, the series itself. This isn't an historical relic clinging to life by its fingertips; with the merger, the race and the series just had a quadruple bypass and a fresh lease on life to chart an optimistic future. The Indy 500 is now more relevant than it's ever been, and the future of the Indy Car Series is riding on that.

[Chaparral66]

Readin my trash, paying attention to what I say or actual expertise on your part, either way, we're on the same side of the track...waitin for the season to begin.

Can't come soon enough, Dave...

[ShiftingGears]

Thank you, theugsquirrel. You literary comprehension becomes you. :)

No wuckin' forries.

[Dave Brock]

Can't come soon enough, Dave...

YEE-up, it needs to start the 1st of March & run until halloween.
Heres a different take on your sig...

"Racing is life. Everything before or after, is just waiting." Steve McQueen, Le Mans

"LeMans is the only movie, the rest are just some person's idea of a movie."
:D

[!!WALDO!!]

YEE-up, it needs to start the 1st of March & run until halloween.
Heres a different take on your sig...

"Racing is life. Everything before or after, is just waiting." Steve McQueen, Le Mans

"LeMans is the only movie, the rest are just some person's idea of a movie."
:D


Very True....

[Chaparral66]

YEE-up, it needs to start the 1st of March & run until halloween.
Heres a different take on your sig...

"Racing is life. Everything before or after, is just waiting." Steve McQueen, Le Mans

"LeMans is the only movie, the rest are just some person's idea of a movie."
:D

Deep, dude, deep.

[garyshell]

YEE-up, it needs to start the 1st of March & run until halloween.
Heres a different take on your sig...

"Racing is life. Everything before or after, is just waiting." Steve McQueen, Le Mans

"LeMans is the only movie, the rest are just some person's idea of a movie."
:D

Truer words were never spoken!

Gary

[Dave Brock]

Truer words were never spoken!

Gary

I only remember the quote, didn't originate it but wish I had!

I used to take girls to see it at the drive-in
AND WE"D WATCH IT ALL THE WAY THRU!
:o How committed it that? :o
;)

[garyshell]

I only remember the quote, didn't originate it but wish I had!

I used to take girls to see it at the drive-in
AND WE"D WATCH IT ALL THE WAY THRU!
:o How committed it that? :o
;)


Now THAT is commitment and grounds for committal! <big ol' grin>

Gary

[Dave Brock]

Now THAT is commitment and grounds for committal! <big ol' grin>

Gary
I'll cop to the "grounds for" violation, it would have been 2hrs of thrills either way, I just had priorities early on :rolleyes: :D