How long could the IRL have held out for?

[ASCAR24/7/365.5]

just something interesting ive noticed is that there are only around 16 cars from last years crop that are returning full time, so this begs the question of was this a mutual merger because BOTH series were up the creak without a paddle, rather than the much published champcar demise?...which ever way im glad theyre back together, however i think if theres less than 24 cars on teh grid it will show what a sad state of affairs BOTH series were in, and the fact that cars were being payed for by series owners.

[-Helix-]

I don't think Indycar was in any financial trouble unlike Champ Car which probably wouldn't have made it through the season.

Not saying they were well off though. I'm sure the IRL was losing money as well. Just not at as high of a rate. TG has a lot of money at his disposal so I see no reason that Indycar would've come to an end in the near future.

[HiWayStar]

I'm sure car counts were going to be an issue for the IRL this season...that's why TG offered up his program to teams that committed to run the entire season.

This whole thing reminds me of two heavyweight fighters who have just spent the last 12 rounds beating each other to a pulp. Both barely able to stand on their own; 1 collapses & the other wins by struggling back to his feet, staggering, but upright.

In short, the IRL wins, will have their car count, & a full field in May. As for any progress beyond that, we'll have to wait & see.

[Rex Monaco]

My guess is that Honda was leaving the IRL after 2008 unless this happened. That would have made 2008 the last year for the IRL, barring a HUGE miracle.

CCWS was also unlikely to survive into 2009.

[Rogelio]

Both series were cetainly in trouble, but the IRL was certainly in much better shape than Champ Car. I was hopeful that the CC season would start and somehow miraculously get back some semi stability. Unfortuantely, I do not think that Champ Car would have made it through the season, especially with the horrible television package and lack of sponsorship.

TG and the IRL have the money so they could have easily funded more teams/drivers unlike Champ Car. Surely Forsythe and the other teams could have put up more money, but even last year, Forsythe said he would not put up any more of his money. Without the merger, it is hard to imagine that Champ Car would have been ready for Long Beach, let alone the season. Looking back, looks like both series were in dire straits.

[Chaparral66]

I'm sure car counts were going to be an issue for the IRL this season...that's why TG offered up his program to teams that committed to run the entire season.

This whole thing reminds me of two heavyweight fighters who have just spent the last 12 rounds beating each other to a pulp. Both barely able to stand on their own; 1 collapses & the other wins by struggling back to his feet, staggering, but upright.

In short, the IRL wins, will have their car count, & a full field in May. As for any progress beyond that, we'll have to wait & see.

I'm not ready to say the IRL won just yet. True, TG gets to be top dog in the sport, but if we can believe his word, and he's been heading in this direction anyway for the last few years, it's the CART vision of open wheel racing, with a healthy mix of ovals, road and street courses, that is apparantly going to be the model starting in 2009 and beyond, if we can believe TG's comments to Dave Despain and Robin Miller on SPEED's Wind Tunnel this past Sunday. That tells me that the conflict came out a draw. CCWS suffered from bad management lately and if Honda indeed intended to go after next year, not even TG could keep writing checks without that support from Honda. This unification was borne out of the neccesity of two series sinking in quicksand. They finally realized they needed each other more than to keep fighting a war that only NASCAR was winning.

[Cart750hp]

TG during his interview, he was more of saying to himself, "Gosh, this interview is taking forever. Who the..Dude, Kevin looks old. Do I need to be here, I mean, KK is here. They can talk to him". Robin Miller: ".....focus on the series instead"? TG: "Uh...(my shoes looks dirty)...yeah. My wife owns the team...". That was funny.

CC is gone and done. With all the talks years back about reunification, it was just the timing (per KK but it's more about the money). CC owners are done spending money to the series when they know the series is helpless. Their plan A didn't work and plan B is to go to TG's office. If this merger would've been done months ago, Long Beach and Motegi would've been fixed. That alone is one reason why KK/GF makes them more of the ones who gave up and went to TG on a Sunday evening.

IRL could probably stayed longer than CC if both continued on to be run by the same guys. If CC would've been sold to another individual other than TG, the split could continue on. I'm just glad it's over and time for great racing.

[Dave Brock]

I'm not ready to say the IRL won just yet. True, TG gets to be top dog in the sport, but if we can believe his word, and he's been heading in this direction anyway for the last few years, it's the CART vision of open wheel racing, with a healthy mix of ovals, road and street courses, that is apparantly going to be the model starting in 2009 and beyond, if we can believe TG's comments to Dave Despain and Robin Miller on SPEED's Wind Tunnel this past Sunday. That tells me that the conflict came out a draw. CCWS suffered from bad management lately and if Honda indeed intended to go after next year, not even TG could keep writing checks without that support from Honda. This unification was borne out of the neccesity of two series sinking in quicksand. They finally realized they needed each other more than to keep fighting a war that only NASCAR was winning.


Then why, pray tell, did the 3 stooges knok on Tonys door for help?
Why didn't they just find another FORD or BRIDGESTONE or a SWISS or AUSTRAILIAN BANK or another $35Mill in stockholders cash to bail THEIR wazzoo out of the wringer at the LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT?

Tony never once asked to be "bailed out" but the dim series had no problem wearing a rut in the carpet outside Tony's door multiple time a year for the past 3 or more.

CCWS is the winner in this war.......
IF
you subscribe to the theory that he who dies first WINS!
AND if you do, there are plenty of 12guage OFF switches waiting to be pulled.

[Roninho]

Who cares about who won and what if?

The last years have been about comparing both series problems to see which one was less worse. That time has gone, now let's focus on building the serie.

We have 1 serie with a big schedule and it looks like there will be a +- 25 car grid. The serie has a payed tv-contract, has indy, a supportive engine manufacturer and a lot of promoters and events that will take a serious look at re-joining the serie which will be great for upping the sanction fee's. Personally i feel that the serie is in better shape then both series have been for years.

[Rudy Tamasz]

My guess is that Honda was leaving the IRL after 2008 unless this happened. That would have made 2008 the last year for the IRL, barring a HUGE miracle.

CCWS was also unlikely to survive into 2009.

Then both series dying their own deaths would be a natural and logical outcome of the whole story. Maybe something brand new and healthier could have been born from the ashes. Now I'm afraid the united series has inherited all the illnesses of both CCWS and IRL in its DNA.

[pvtjoker]

If 16 was all they had in Feb., I'm guessing TG would have bankrolled some rides to get to 18 or 19 (we all know how well that plan works!). Perhaps a 3rd Vision car or a 2nd Panther car or a 2nd D&R ride.

[Rex Monaco]

Now I'm afraid the united series has inherited all the illnesses of both CCWS and IRL in its DNA.

Or they will learn from the mistakes of both series and will rid themselves of the illnesses.

Only time will tell.

[Chris R]

I think we are making lot of assumptions about what transpired. There is no real indication of who went to who about this merger. I think CCWS PROBABLY approached TG - but maybe not....

Neither series had adequate car count. Chances seem good that CCWS would not have lasted the year without significant series owner subsidies. Realistically, the same goes for the IRL. We do not know if TG had internal issues from family member, Honda, etc. telling him he HAD to get the deal done OR ELSE. WE also do not know if KK and GF HAD to sell or just didn't WANT to spend more money on the project. So overall, your guess is as good as mine as to you pushed harder for unification or who would or would not have survived the year. I suspect we will never really know for sure... Although if KK gets a new Gulfstream or suddenly is Gulfstreamless we might have a clue.....

The offer, as we know it, made to the CCWS teams probably represented the cheapest way for TG to fill the Indy 500 and get at least 18 cars into the field. It might represent a slightly larger outlay of cash then some alternatives - but there is a very real chance for the merger to generate income which should help offset the additional expenses.

Anyway, I think at the end of the day, this merger made too much business sense for all parties involved. The boxing analogy is about right - both series were in serious trouble and debating who would have lasted longer is really just a continuation of the "my side s**ks less than your side" argument that has dominated these boards for the past 4 or 5 years anyway....

Bottom line is the is what was worked out and when everything is taken into consideration, it was probably the best deal for everyone...

[garyshell]

Then why, pray tell, did the 3 stooges knok on Tonys door for help?
Why didn't they just find another FORD or BRIDGESTONE or a SWISS or AUSTRAILIAN BANK or another $35Mill in stockholders cash to bail THEIR wazzoo out of the wringer at the LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT?

Tony never once asked to be "bailed out" but the dim series had no problem wearing a rut in the carpet outside Tony's door multiple time a year for the past 3 or more.

Would that include the time that Roger Penske tried to get the two side together? Do you know the particulars of who initiated what phone calls? Unless you have some inside information to share, it has NEVER been clearly stated who called who. Both sides have said they continued to talk, but never who picked up the phone first.

The war is over, thankfully, but that doesn't mean it is time to rewrite history to paint a new picture of the eventual winner.

This whole thread about how long could the IRL have lasted is just ridiculous. The IRL outlasted the CCWS, period. No amount of senseless speculation is going to change that fact. It's time for the CCWS fans to face that truth.


Gary

[Rogelio]

Would that include the time that Roger Penske tried to get the two side together? Do you know the particulars of who initiated what phone calls? Unless you have some inside information to share, it has NEVER been clearly stated who called who. Both sides have said they continued to talk, but never who picked up the phone first.

The war is over, thankfully, but that doesn't mean it is time to rewrite history to paint a new picture of the eventual winner.

This whole thread about how long could the IRL have lasted is just ridiculous. The IRL outlasted the CCWS, period. No amount of senseless speculation is going to change that fact. It's time for the CCWS fans to face that truth.

I am sure speculating will continue for the coming years and books will be written regarding the split and merger. There is nothing wrong with revision as new details surface.


Gary

No offense Gary, but should the posters seek permission from you for a post? When I come across a post I dislike, I simply ignore it. Is speculation ilegal? Relax Gary. I find the post interesting and I am sure many others do as well. If you do not like the post, then move on to another post.

[garyshell]

Would that include the time that Roger Penske tried to get the two side together? Do you know the particulars of who initiated what phone calls? Unless you have some inside information to share, it has NEVER been clearly stated who called who. Both sides have said they continued to talk, but never who picked up the phone first.

The war is over, thankfully, but that doesn't mean it is time to rewrite history to paint a new picture of the eventual winner.

This whole thread about how long could the IRL have lasted is just ridiculous. The IRL outlasted the CCWS, period. No amount of senseless speculation is going to change that fact. It's time for the CCWS fans to face that truth.


Gary


No offense Gary, but should the posters seek permission from you for a post? When I come across a post I dislike, I simply ignore it. Is speculation ilegal? Relax Gary. I find the post interesting and I am sure many others do as well. If you do not like the post, then move on to another post.

No, but that does not make the discussion and less specious. Also, please note the CORRECT quote from me above. The quote in your reply contains a line that I did not write. And to that line, I aggree, BUT only if the revisions are FACTS. History is full of revisionist history created by the eventual winners of wars, to paint themselves in a new but untrue light.

Gary

[Rogelio]

No, but that does not make the discussion and less specious. Also, please note the CORRECT quote from me above. The quote in your reply contains a line that I did not write. And to that line, I aggree, BUT only if the revisions are FACTS. History is full of revisionist history created by the eventual winners of wars, to paint themselves in a new but untrue light.

Gary

Revisionism generally always focuses on the facts. Unfortuantely, the facts are always subjective. We all have a bias and we all interpret the evidence in our ways.

[champcarray]

The original question reminds me of the questions: If you and a friend are being chased by a hungry lioness, how fast do you have to run to get away? The answer, of course, is faster than your friend! In this case, KK lost the foot race, but I don't know whether the TG and the IRL were necessarily fast enough to outrun all the challenges they were facing.

[rabf1]

The IRL could and did outlast Cart, but I think the IRL had another year or two at most before TG would have been having to basically fund nearly everyone.

[BobGarage]

The IRL could and did outlast Cart, but I think the IRL had another year or two at most before TG would have been having to basically fund nearly everyone.

which is why he was so open to a merger this time round.

[Ruben Barrios]

I'm not ready to say the IRL won just yet. True, TG gets to be top dog in the sport, but if we can believe his word, and he's been heading in this direction anyway for the last few years, it's the CART vision of open wheel racing, with a healthy mix of ovals, road and street courses, that is apparantly going to be the model starting in 2009 and beyond, if we can believe TG's comments to Dave Despain and Robin Miller on SPEED's Wind Tunnel this past Sunday. That tells me that the conflict came out a draw. CCWS suffered from bad management lately and if Honda indeed intended to go after next year, not even TG could keep writing checks without that support from Honda. This unification was borne out of the neccesity of two series sinking in quicksand. They finally realized they needed each other more than to keep fighting a war that only NASCAR was winning.


IRL didn't win, this was never about Cart vs. IRL... this has always been about TG wanting more power...

Had the owners of CART given him a seat, this would have never happened, instead, the owners played hard... only to fold slowly while destroying everything on the way...

They decided not to give him a seat and ended up giving him the whole thing... Smart guys right?

TG may well be an idiot but one thing is for sure... he got his way... a couple of hundred million dollars after, millions of fans less, but he got his way (even more than he bargained for)... the owners... where are they?

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue...!

[garyshell]

Do you know the particulars of who initiated what phone calls? Unless you have some inside information to share, it has NEVER been clearly stated who called who. Both sides have said they continued to talk, but never who picked up the phone first.


Well, more barbecued crow for me. We finally have have a clear statement. I am listening to the press conference and "...king George" just says he was pleased when he received a call from Kevin. Ok, would someone pass the hot sauce please.

Gary

[Dave Brock]

Would that include the time that Roger Penske tried to get the two side together? Do you know the particulars of who initiated what phone calls? Unless you have some inside information to share, it has NEVER been clearly stated who called who. Both sides have said they continued to talk, but never who picked up the phone first.

The war is over, thankfully, but that doesn't mean it is time to rewrite history to paint a new picture of the eventual winner.

This whole thread about how long could the IRL have lasted is just ridiculous. The IRL outlasted the CCWS, period. No amount of senseless speculation is going to change that fact. It's time for the CCWS fans to face that truth.


Gary


IF you happened to be interested enough to follow the most recent TV interviews you would have heard Kalkohven SAY....."I 1st called on Mr. George about 4 years ago about a possible unification."

You need to be in tune with current events to make statements like...

"Do you know the particulars of who initiated what phone calls? Unless you have some inside information to share, it has NEVER been clearly stated who called who."
And I will never forget (nor will any true long haul IRL fan) the PookyMessiah sayin at a press conference...

"WE extended an olive branch and dropped our pants but there were no takers"
I think those 2 items sufficiantly cover at least 2 initational jaunts to Mr. George.
CART/CCWS 2 ....TG 0

[garyshell]

IF you happened to be interested enough to follow the most recent TV interviews you would have heard Kalkohven SAY....."I 1st called on Mr. George about 4 years ago about a possible unification."

You need to be in tune with current events to make statements like...

"Do you know the particulars of who initiated what phone calls? Unless you have some inside information to share, it has NEVER been clearly stated who called who."
And I will never forget (nor will any true long haul IRL fan) the PookyMessiah sayin at a press conference...

"WE extended an olive branch and dropped our pants but there were no takers"
I think those 2 items sufficiantly cover at least 2 initational jaunts to Mr. George.
CART/CCWS 2 ....TG 0

I have to assume you did not read through the rest of this thread before you posted, because if you had you would have seen:


Do you know the particulars of who initiated what phone calls? Unless you have some inside information to share, it has NEVER been clearly stated who called who. Both sides have said they continued to talk, but never who picked up the phone first.


Well, more barbecued crow for me. We finally have have a clear statement. I am listening to the press conference and "...king George" just says he was pleased when he received a call from Kevin. Ok, would someone pass the hot sauce please.

Gary

That reply was made literally as I was watching the press conference. I think you will find I am more than willing to admit to my "mea culpa" moments. And I also post a note back to a thread after I call someone out on something and see that they had latter in the thread corrected themselves. Hint. Hint. Nudge. Nudge. :cool:

BTW the Pook comments are a total non-sequitor and have zero relevance to the conversation which was about the reunification of ChampCar and IRL not CART and IRL.

Gary