For Those Who Are Familiar With Tony George

[Cart750hp]

...this guy really is a number one j-e-r-k! I like him, he's pretty good. He knows what he got on his table and he's enjoying every minute of it. He is now the most powerful man in American Open Wheel Racing. His character and his attitude really is going to upset a lot of competitor and that's exactly what the new series needs; attitude and determination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv13DvGux5E

Thanks for posting this, SportsCarBruce.

[Cart750hp]

Did Tony just said in the end of the interview about Mario Andretti, "combat pay" for his effort of trying to get these two together? Tony's the man!

[Chris R]

The best thing I can come up with about TG is that he seems to be able to choose decent people and he has no problem delegating to those people. THe problem with people like him is that they delegate until they get a bug up their you-know-what about something then they pull rank and make a mess of things...

In a related observation, I'll hold my final judgement for a while, but after ALL of the CCWS teams showed up yesterday I am getting the distinct feeling that KK and the CCWS teams may have played this situation much better than we might first have thought....

[indycool]

I think KK and TG just struck a bargain to go racing together and the teams liked it, as most everybody else has wanted one series for years.

[nigelred5]

It sounds to the decision was IRL or nothing so I have to think TG's offer was basically life or death for the teams. It needed to be done. Despite the announced schedule of races, they were obviously not going to bankroll the season again.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I have to congratulate TG. He's won. He really became the most powerful man in AOWR, which may have been his objective in the first place. (I don't think so.)

It took twelve years and it may took another twelve to undo the enermous damage, but he won. I hope the new series will succeed and I will cheer along the way, but these decades are lost for good. So unlike you, I won't ever like Tony George even as an IndyCar fan.

[bennybigb]

Yeah! Tony George is the Man!!

the man that killed open wheel racing in North America. As far as I'm concerned, he can have it. He'll only mess it up more. All you fans buying into this "merger will save open wheel racing" are going to be extremely disapointed when you realize Tony cannot be trusted. Just wait, 2009 and 2010 will bring more ovals, more crapwagons, and less fans.

Now to the ALMS Forum....

[garyshell]

...this guy really is a number one j-e-r-k! I like him, he's pretty good. He knows what he got on his table and he's enjoying every minute of it. He is now the most powerful man in American Open Wheel Racing. His character and his attitude really is going to upset a lot of competitor and that's exactly what the new series needs; attitude and determination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv13DvGux5E

Thanks for posting this, SportsCarBruce.


Yeah! Tony George is the Man!!

the man that killed open wheel racing in North America. As far as I'm concerned, he can have it. He'll only mess it up more. All you fans buying into this "merger will save open wheel racing" are going to be extremely disapointed when you realize Tony cannot be trusted. Just wait, 2009 and 2010 will bring more ovals, more crapwagons, and less fans.

Now to the ALMS Forum....


And here we have the two extremes of the argument. I will only offer up two points.

Point one, you can hate the man and still support the hundreds of OTHER folks that the series represents, the drivers, the mechanics, the folks manning the souvenir booths, the truck drivers, the office workers etc. etc. etc. THEY are who are dollars are going to as well, never forget that fact.

Point two, if this new arrangement is good enough for Paul Newman it is good enough for me. To me, he has always spoken the truth. He is in the know for a lot more detail to this than ANY of us could hope to be. In this mini encapsulation of representative democracy, he is my representative. (Yes, yes I know this is REALLY an aristocracy, I remember my comparative government studies from high school.)

Gary

[gofastandwynn]

Now to the ALMS Forum....

For some one who isn't a fan, you sure seem to only post here.

If you are off to the ALMS forum, then go post there.

[indycool]

I think an overwhelming majority of people will be happier with one series rather than two. And some just want to hate TG. Some at F-Troop are using their favorite letter for KK since he merged from the other side. Hating TG or KK has nothing to do with anything when the green flag drops.

[DBell]

I think an overwhelming majority of people will be happier with one series rather than two. And some just want to hate TG. Some at F-Troop are using their favorite letter for KK since he merged from the other side. Hating TG or KK has nothing to do with anything when the green flag drops.

For me, if I fail to become a fan of the series, it won't be for my personal dislike of TG. So I agree with you on that. Right now I'm kind of observing to see what the future holds. If the product put out in a couple of years is good, thats what will sell me. I don't like Bernie, but thats never stopped me from being an F1 fan.

As for Tony, he should never go on camera again. Or hire a speech coach. Every time I've seen him talk it's like personal contest to see how many ums,wells and you knows he can get in every sentence!

[bblocker68]

I'm just relieved that Barnhardt and Cotman will be involved with the day to day operations. I have huge respect for those 2.

[HoustonCartFan]

I am going to give them a chance. I think we all should. The people who are dismissive of the merged series before they have yet to run a race were perhaps never true fans in the first place.

I hope they do well and take back their rightful ownership of the top series in American motorsport.

[garyshell]

I think an overwhelming majority of people will be happier with one series rather than two. And some just want to hate TG. Some at F-Troop are using their favorite letter for KK since he merged from the other side. Hating TG or KK has nothing to do with anything when the green flag drops.


And some of will fall into BOTH of the first categories. It's not a mutually exclusive set. I am happier with one series, and still despise "...king George".

Gary

[garyshell]

Every time I've seen him talk it's like personal contest to see how many ums,wells and you knows he can get in every sentence!


The all time king of "you know"s was Al Unser Jr. My wife and I used to immediately say to each other "well, you know" as soon as we saw a microphone placed in front of his face.

Gary

[SFChamp]

:( Man I Hate Crap Wagons!!!!

RIP
Champ Car & DP 01

Off To F-1 &ALMS

[garyshell]

Off To F-1 &ALMS


Just do it already, quit talking about it.

Gary

[HiWayStar]

One series = good.

One series = IRL = not so good...will observe the combined effort for awhile before passing judgment.

TG in charge: the Hulmans have the $$$ to support the sport if the need arises. And TG has shown the commitment to the sport...(that's all the positives I have, so I'll leave it at that)

[UDFlyer]

I have to congratulate TG. He's won. He really became the most powerful man in AOWR, which may have been his objective in the first place. (I don't think so.)

It took twelve years and it may took another twelve to undo the enermous damage, but he won. I hope the new series will succeed and I will cheer along the way, but these decades are lost for good. So unlike you, I won't ever like Tony George even as an IndyCar fan.

May have been his objective in the first place? There's no doubt at all that that was the original reason. Nothing else explains the historical facts that every single one of his stated reasons for starting the IRL (oval racing, American drivers, American oval track drivers, no engine leases, teams build their own engines, etc) have proven to be lies.

So here we are, 12 years after the creation of the 'vision'. What do we have?

Indy 500 glory? Gone
Indy 500 bumping? Gone
Ford? Gone
Toyota? Gone
Mercedes? Gone
Lola? Gone
Reynard? Gone
Swift? Gone
Gurney/Eagle? Gone
Three quarters of the fans? Gone
Too many sponsors to count? Gone
Michigan? Gone
Nazareth? Gone
Road America? Gone
Cleveland? Gone
Toronto? Gone
Laguna Seca? Gone

Ugliest cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Worst-sounding cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Indy cars that fly through the air? Check
Indy 500 and Indy-series champions not even bothering to defend their championships? Check
Indy racing giving power steering to Danica to try to steal a win for her? Check
Shady officiating to steal an Indy 500 win from Paul Tracy? Check
Sports fans now think that the '500' means Daytona? Check

The future of American open-wheel racing is now 100% being led by the man that is 100% percent responsible for all of this. And we're supposed to be happy about this?

Paul Tracy was right.

[jarrambide]

May have been his objective in the first place? There's no doubt at all that that was the original reason. Nothing else explains the historical facts that every single one of his stated reasons for starting the IRL (oval racing, American drivers, American oval track drivers, no engine leases, teams build their own engines, etc) have proven to be lies.

So here we are, 12 years after the creation of the 'vision'. What do we have?

Indy 500 glory? Gone
Indy 500 bumping? Gone
Ford? Gone
Toyota? Gone
Mercedes? Gone
Lola? Gone
Reynard? Gone
Swift? Gone
Gurney/Eagle? Gone
Three quarters of the fans? Gone
Too many sponsors to count? Gone
Michigan? Gone
Nazareth? Gone
Road America? Gone
Cleveland? Gone
Toronto? Gone
Laguna Seca? Gone

Ugliest cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Worst-sounding cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Indy cars that fly through the air? Check
Indy 500 and Indy-series champions not even bothering to defend their championships? Check
Indy racing giving power steering to Danica to try to steal a win for her? Check
Shady officiating to steal an Indy 500 win from Paul Tracy? Check
Sports fans now think that the '500' means Daytona? Check

The future of American open-wheel racing is now 100% being led by the man that is 100% percent responsible for all of this. And we're supposed to be happy about this?

Paul Tracy was right.
You posted this exact comment in another thread yesterday or the day before yesterday.
We got it the first time, no need to repost.

Guys, I feel your pain, you know I was a huge CC fan, posting how you feel is all right, posting the same comments again and again and again is not, posting ad infinitum things like "I´m going to ALMS and F1", "I hate those crapwagons I will never watch them", "I´m angry, I hate KK and TG" will not be acceptable, if you guys hate the unified, merged or absorbed series (or whatever other name you want to use) so much I will just take you out of your misery and revoke your posting rights in the IndyCar forum.

[Dave Brock]

...this guy really is a number one j-e-r-k! I like him, he's pretty good. He knows what he got on his table and he's enjoying every minute of it. He is now the most powerful man in American Open Wheel Racing. His character and his attitude really is going to upset a lot of competitor and that's exactly what the new series needs; attitude and determination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv13DvGux5E

Thanks for posting this, SportsCarBruce.


I hate to break old news to you ...BUT
TG has BEEN the most powerful man in American Open Wheel Racing
since the day he took the reins of THE SPEEDWAY as evidenced by the series he created AND the multiple uses that he delivered to the fans of SPEEDWAY RACING at Indy.
The old man wasn't smart enough to make the money at the track that the lucky sperm has since he took over.

Whiners, it seems, are never able to leave the comfort of the rut they live in, even if the comfort is painfully absent or absently painful.

It's like the Rockman said....
"you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear".
And if you go goofin with the Bees, you'd better expect to get stung.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Some at F-Troop are using their favorite letter for KK since he merged from the other side.

He didn't quite merge. He rather got sick and tired of running his racing series, dumped the cars and the events and told his teams to join IRL. That's everybody's problem with him.

[Rex Monaco]

I have to congratulate TG. He's won. He really became the most powerful man in AOWR, which may have been his objective in the first place. (I don't think so.)

That's like congratulating a mafia boss for controlling the long shoreman in Newark. How many people were killed or hurt in order for him to gain control?

When he's the most powerful man in American racing, let me know. My guess is that when it gets close to that happening, insurrection will take place amongst the team owners.

That's usually what happens when people sieze power instead of earning it.

[indycool]

It wasn't so much a "seizure of power", although that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, it is the hatred developed by the F-Troop. It would be a difficult life indeed to live for the purpose of hating someone they never even met.

I predict something different. Now that it is FINALLY back together, and the hardships faced by teams and money blown by CART, CART shareholders, The Amigos, the teams and, yes, TG, at least this generation of teams is going to understand that a 12-year "strike" can be devastating.

I'm not going to stop watching baseball because Bud Selig is the commissioner. But for those who check out on the sport because they hate TG, it's their privilege to do so and I pity them.

[TU Homer]

It wasn't so much a "seizure of power", although that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, it is the hatred developed by the F-Troop. It would be a difficult life indeed to live for the purpose of hating someone they never even met.

I predict something different. Now that it is FINALLY back together, and the hardships faced by teams and money blown by CART, CART shareholders, The Amigos, the teams and, yes, TG, at least this generation of teams is going to understand that a 12-year "strike" can be devastating.

I'm not going to stop watching baseball because Bud Selig is the commissioner. But for those who check out on the sport because they hate TG, it's their privilege to do so and I pity them.
What amazes me now is the re-writing of history. And to trivialize the response many of us had to Tony George's decision back in 1994 is amazing. My outrage is not the result of others. Who is F-Troop anyway? You are one of the most insulting persons on the boards.

IC, please answer... Why did TG do all this? It was together before TG made his decision to splinter the sport. Don't forget that.

[indycool]

Well, TU, we can't dwell on the past. If TG split the sport in '96, The Amigos fought like crazy in court to keep the sport split in '04. Now it's one series again and that in itself will make it much stronger in the marketplace. We can act like TG and KK and GF did and join the SPORT so that the SPORT has a chance to sustain itself and succeed or we can grumble, I guess.

[Rex Monaco]

It would be a difficult life indeed to live for the purpose of hating someone they never even met.

I never met Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin or Mao. So does that mean that my opinions of how and why they did what they did are invalid?

Then call me a reasoned person devoid of empty rhetoric.

[indycool]

Nope. I probably feel the same way toward those guys that you do. They were responsible for the deaths of thousands, maybe millions of people.

But it seems to be quite a stretch to put those guys or Osama bin Laden or Ted Bundy in the same league on the Internet on a regular basis as the management of an auto racing series.

[Rex Monaco]

But it seems to be quite a stretch to put those guys or Osama bin Laden or Ted Bundy in the same league on the Internet on a regular basis as the management of an auto racing series.

It's also quite a stretch to state that just because someone has never met TG personally that they then aren't in the position to criticize his business decisions.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Well, TU, we can't dwell on the past. If TG split the sport in '96, The Amigos fought like crazy in court to keep the sport split in '04. Now it's one series again and that in itself will make it much stronger in the marketplace. We can act like TG and KK and GF did and join the SPORT so that the SPORT has a chance to sustain itself and succeed or we can grumble, I guess.

Ironically, I think they fought to avoid what ultimately happened in an even more dramatic way: an imbalanced merger in which one side takes it all. For reasons thouroughly discussed, though, they didn't succeed.

[downtowndeco]

What amazes me now is the re-writing of history. And to trivialize the response many of us had to Tony George's decision back in 1994 is amazing. My outrage is not the result of others. Who is F-Troop anyway? You are one of the most insulting persons on the boards.

IC, please answer... Why did TG do all this? It was together before TG made his decision to splinter the sport. Don't forget that.

The difference is that in 1996 TG legitimately thought that there was room for two OW series. One oval based, the other, road and street based. Remember that the mid 90's was a motorsports boom here in the U.S. New tracks were being built almost monthly it seemed.

For ten years TG stuck to an all oval series, to try and be distinct and different from the product CART/CCWS was offering. He tried to stay out of CC's hair by not trying to infringe on their territory. He didn't try and muscle in on their races nor did he try to copy their product. In the end though, there simply wasn't enough fans, sponsors, teams or interest for two OW series.

By 2004 EVERYONE could see that there was not room for two series. Everyone, that is, except a handful of CC fans and a few rich guys. I blame CCWS at this point more than I do TG at this point. Because in 1996 TG legitimately thought there was room for two distinctly different OW series. It was a judgement call and an honest miscalulation. By 2004 no one coould have honestly thought there was room for two. But OWRS went on ahead anyway, wasting another four years.

[garyshell]

It would be a difficult life indeed to live for the purpose of hating someone they never even met.


I never met Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin or Mao. So does that mean that my opinions of how and why they did what they did are invalid?


Nope. I probably feel the same way toward those guys that you do. They were responsible for the deaths of thousands, maybe millions of people.

But it seems to be quite a stretch to put those guys or Osama bin Laden or Ted Bundy in the same league on the Internet on a regular basis as the management of an auto racing series.

Indycool, come on. No one here is trying to even REMOTELY suggest that "...king George" is in the same league as these folks. (You might have seen such assertions on the carpwagon forums.) The point that was being made here was, as you well know, that it is perfectly logical for folks to be able to hate someone for their decisions and the public face that they put forward without having to break bread with that person.

Gary

[garyshell]

The difference is that in 1996 TG legitimately thought that there was room for two OW series. One oval based, the other, road and street based. Remember that the mid 90's was a motorsports boom here in the U.S. New tracks were being built almost monthly it seemed.

For ten years TG stuck to an all oval series, to try and be distinct and different from the product CART/CCWS was offering. He tried to stay out of CC's hair by not trying to infringe on their territory. He didn't try and muscle in on their races nor did he try to copy their product. In the end though, there simply wasn't enough fans, sponsors, teams or interest for two OW series.

By 2004 EVERYONE could see that there was not room for two series. Everyone, that is, except a handful of CC fans and a few rich guys. I blame CCWS at this point more than I do TG at this point. Because in 1996 TG legitimately thought there was room for two distinctly different OW series. It was a judgement call and an honest miscalulation. By 2004 no one coould have honestly thought there was room for two. But OWRS went on ahead anyway, wasting another four years.


I do not buy that for one second. I think "...king George" had a plan all along that did not include a second series. Witness the "I bring my hammer to work everyday" quotes. I don't think that was a new concept thought up down the road. I think it was the plan from day one.

But again, it doesn't REALLY matter now does it? There is now one series and for better or worse of what has transpired in the past 13 year, we are here NOW. I am glad the chapters are now behind us. I am glad to see the folks takig the track today for the start of a new season, with the promise of full fields!!!!!

Gary

[downtowndeco]

I do not buy that for one second. I think "...king George" had a plan all along that did not include a second series. Witness the "I bring my hammer to work everyday" quotes. I don't think that was a new concept thought up down the road. I think it was the plan from day one.


We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I'm looking forward to what the future may hold. Cheers. : ).

[garyshell]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I'm looking forward to what the future may hold. Cheers. : ).


Agreed!!! And I am looking forward to it too. I am especially looking forward to the day when all of this mess is a fading memory, and it is ALL about the racing once again.

To paraphrase Robert DeNiro's character in Apocalypse Now, "I love the smell of ethanol in the morning!".

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your engines!

Gary

[indycool]

We agree on that, Gary and dd.

Gary and Rex, I used poor terminology, which led to poorer terminology on Rex's part. Meet 'em or not, Rex is right to an extent. You can criticize any management anyone feels like. But you originally alluded to it as the mafia killing longshoremen in Newark for power. I responded to that.

[Ruben Barrios]

It's also quite a stretch to state that just because someone has never met TG personally that they then aren't in the position to criticize his business decisions.

One thing is to criticize, another is living to hate someone you've never met...

[TU Homer]

Well, TU, we can't dwell on the past. If TG split the sport in '96, The Amigos fought like crazy in court to keep the sport split in '04. Now it's one series again and that in itself will make it much stronger in the marketplace. We can act like TG and KK and GF did and join the SPORT so that the SPORT has a chance to sustain itself and succeed or we can grumble, I guess.

Hmm. I think the incumbent was indeed, CCWS. If TG had simply allowed IRL to be assumed by CCWS or had he decided to go out of business, then the splinter would have gone away. No wait, let's be more direct...had TG not had his "thought" to control all of OW racing in NA, then there would not have been a splinter. But, the long history of 3.5l NA Honda engines on Italian chassis' was too great to let it die...

I'm not sure an IRL apologist is an accurate description any longer. I think you're more of a revisionist.


-TU

[indycool]

Nope. CART went bankrupt. It was no more. That left the IRL as the only series....until the bankruptcy hearing. That's NOT revisionist. But as I said, the big kids put the SPORT first with this deal and who gained or lost what is really irrelevant for the future.

[jarrambide]

I definitely dislike Tony George, I was very sad when CART went out of business and even more sad when CC was unable to recover some of the great things of the glory days of CART, but reading words like hatred?, reading so much hate for TG and for KK?

You don´t have to like TG, you don´t have to support the new series, you don´t have to be behind IndyCar, but hate?, to think TG and the IRL are villains?

Don´t get me wrong for what I´m about to write, I like the US a lot, enough to be living there, and since technically I´m a public servant I´m also grateful with the US and specially with the state of Texas.

Having said that, the main problem that I see is that many members of this forum just like many Americans believe that the world owes them, they believe that everyone owes them, that they deserve every wish and that every company, every man, everything should work for their dreams to come true, I see it with the little munchkins at my campus.

TG and KK don´t owe anything to any fan, not a thing, they are businessmen, no more and no less, every decision they have taken regardless to OW has involved their money.

Companies don´t owe anything to no one, as long as they don´t break any rules and or laws they can do whatever they want, if they take the right decisions chances are they will have profits, if they take the wrong decisions chances are they will be losing money, lots of them, if they decide to keep losing money or to cut their losses it is only up to them.

Unless you are working directly or indirectly for them then they have no responsabilities towards you, and even if you do work for any of them it is just a business relationship. Should we hate Wal-Mart for running a very good business and destroying their rivals?, should we hate Starbucks (which I personally find to expensive for the product they offer) for killing so many independent and mom and pop coffee houses?, should we hate Microsoft (I am a Mac user and don´t use Microsoft software, I´m into open source software thanks to hoop) for becoming a successful company?, even tough a few believe those companies are evil empires the truth is that they are not evil, they offer a product and we as their potential clients decide if we want their product or not, if many of us decide they want their offer they become successful, if many of use decide we dislike them then they just go out of business. Do you want to be like those guys that has a blog talking about how Microsoft is some kind of antichrist or that boycotts the Wal-Mart they are trying to open in their area?

IRL and CC are companies, nothing more, nothing less, we are just potential clients, they don´t owe us nothing, we don´t owe them nothing (I don´t believe in that crap about being faithful to a company or sports league), they offer a product, if we like the product we should then buy tickets or watch the races on TV, if we don´t like the product then we should not buy tickets or watch the races, as simple as that, you can always change brands or find a new product, you are in control, if like me you don´t like Starbucks don´t hate them (I personally respect them as a company, I wish I could create a company with so many great strategies), find a coffee house you like, I personally go to a place call Panera´s , not a real coffee house, but I like their product and like their price (I feel they give me lots for my money, plus they had real free wi-fi which was a life saver during my first weeks in the US), I don´t like using PC´s or Windows or using Office, but I don´t hate Microsoft or Bill Gates (the guy found out you don´t need to have the best product but that becoming the standard was so much better, kuddos to him, wish I could be like him), instead I use a Mac and non Microsoft products, I feel the extra price is worth it, it is after all a personal decision.

I will give IndyCar a chance, if I like the product I will buy it, if don´t I will change brands or find a new product, as easy as that, TG doesn´t owes me nothing, just like KK didn´t owe nothing, I don´t owe him nothing, it is just a business decision, he has a product, I´m just a potential customer.

[jarrambide]

I definitely dislike Tony George, I was very sad when CART went out of business and even more sad when CC was unable to recover some of the great things of the glory days of CART, but reading words like hatred?, reading so much hate for TG and for KK?

You don´t have to like TG, you don´t have to support the new series, you don´t have to be behind IndyCar, but hate?, to think TG and the IRL are villains?

Don´t get me wrong for what I´m about to write, I like the US a lot, enough to be living there, and since technically I´m a public servant I´m also grateful with the US and specially with the state of Texas.

Having said that, the main problem that I see is that many members of this forum just like many Americans believe that the world owes them, they believe that everyone owes them, that they deserve every wish and that every company, every man, everything should work for their dreams to come true, I see it with the little munchkins at my campus.

TG and KK don´t owe anything to any fan, not a thing, they are businessmen, no more and no less, every decision they have taken regardless to OW has involved their money.

Companies don´t owe anything to no one, as long as they don´t break any rules and or laws they can do whatever they want, if they take the right decisions chances are they will have profits, if they take the wrong decisions chances are they will be losing money, lots of them, if they decide to keep losing money or to cut their losses it is only up to them.

Unless you are working directly or indirectly for them then they have no responsabilities towards you, and even if you do work for any of them it is just a business relationship. Should we hate Wal-Mart for running a very good business and destroying their rivals?, should we hate Starbucks (which I personally find to expensive for the product they offer) for killing so many independent and mom and pop coffee houses?, should we hate Microsoft (I am a Mac user and don´t use Microsoft software, I´m into open source software thanks to hoop) for becoming a successful company?, even tough a few believe those companies are evil empires the truth is that they are not evil, they offer a product and we as their potential clients decide if we want their product or not, if many of us decide they want their offer they become successful, if many of use decide we dislike them then they just go out of business. Do you want to be like those guys that has a blog talking about how Microsoft is some kind of antichrist or that boycotts the Wal-Mart they are trying to open in their area?

IRL and CC are companies, nothing more, nothing less, we are just potential clients, they don´t owe us nothing, we don´t owe them nothing (I don´t believe in that crap about being faithful to a company or sports league), they offer a product, if we like the product we should then buy tickets or watch the races on TV, if we don´t like the product then we should not buy tickets or watch the races, as simple as that, you can always change brands or find a new product, you are in control, if like me you don´t like Starbucks don´t hate them (I personally respect them as a company, I wish I could create a company with so many great strategies), find a coffee house you like, I personally go to a place call Panera´s , not a real coffee house, but I like their product and like their price (I feel they give me lots for my money, plus they had real free wi-fi which was a life saver during my first weeks in the US), I don´t like using PC´s or Windows or using Office, but I don´t hate Microsoft or Bill Gates (the guy found out you don´t need to have the best product but that becoming the standard was so much better, kuddos to him, wish I could be like him), instead I use a Mac and non Microsoft products, I feel the extra price is worth it, it is after all a personal decision.

I will give IndyCar a chance, if I like the product I will buy it, of don´t I will change brands or find a new product, as easy as that, TG doesn´t owes me nothing, just like KK didn´t owe nothing, I don´t owe him nothing, it is just a business decision, he has a product, I´m just a potential customer.

[pits4me]

In a related observation, I'll hold my final judgement for a while, but after ALL of the CCWS teams showed up yesterday I am getting the distinct feeling that KK and the CCWS teams may have played this situation much better than we might first have thought....

Good observation. Never underestimate what the current CC team owners will bring to the future of open wheel racing when this all unfolds. The pretend sponsorships have already started falling off the radar.

[pits4me]

Nope. CART went bankrupt. It was no more. That left the IRL as the only series....until the bankruptcy hearing. That's NOT revisionist. But as I said, the big kids put the SPORT first with this deal and who gained or lost what is really irrelevant for the future.

Cripes, the song bird stikes again. This is your short sighted revisionist perspective. Albert D. Kallal couldn't have put it any better IC.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125096

You should put some honey in your beverage, it may erode the bittness.

[downtowndeco]

Cripes, the song bird stikes again. This is your short sighted revisionist perspective. Albert D. Kallal couldn't have put it any better IC.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125096

You should put some honey in your beverage, it may erode the bittness.

Considering how things have transpired in the last week or so I doubt IC is bitter. He got it right.

[jarrambide]

Considering how things have transpired in the last week or so I doubt IC is bitter. He got it right.
That and the fact that IC cares more about the 500 than the IRL (or CART before the split for that matter), I disagree with him on that one, I don´t believe a race should be more important than a series, but he believes that, and since IRL has the 500 and he loves the 500 and the IRL survived and he will see more competitive cars my bet is that he is very happy.

[SFChamp]

IC can have his- shell of it self 500 and crap wagons

Off to F-1 & ALMS
Heck I'll take Club racing over IRL

SFChamp
One PO'd Open Wheel Fan
Thanks TG :(

[Cart750hp]

IC can have his- shell of it self 500 and crap wagons

Off to F-1 & ALMS
Heck I'll take Club racing over IRL

SFChamp
One PO'd Open Wheel Fan
Thanks TG :(

Dude, I'm at the point I'm getting annoyed by your posts. Take your own advice, my friend.

Jarrambide, MarkC, or Starter....can you please do this guy a favor and send him away? Help him off from misery. He's from SF, I would hate to hear a fanatic jumped off the Golden Gate bridge because of the unification but that would be his decision.

[jarrambide]

Dude, I'm at the point I'm getting annoyed by your posts. Take your own advice, my friend.

Jarrambide, MarkC, or Starter....can you please do this guy a favor and send him away? Help him off from misery. He's from SF, I would hate to hear a fanatic jumped off the Golden Gate bridge because of the unification but that would be his decision.

In all fairness this is only his second "I had it with ...... I´m going away" post, and the first one was on February 14th in which he posted "I had with both series I´m going away", strangely he came back to tell us yet again he is done, hopefully this time he is telling the truth and will not see him again, but if he changes his mind and wants to participate in mature discussions he is more than welcome, but if he comes back again to post yet again how he is done then we will make sure that the 3rd time is a charm.

Almost everyone has been very mature about the whole deal and we should be grateful, I´m very proud of the members of this forum, proving that we are mature enough and that we are real OW fans and can disagree without being childish.

[garyshell]

In all fairness this is only his second "I had it with ...... I´m going away" post, and the first one was on February 14th in which he posted "I had with both series I´m going away", strangely he came back to tell us yet again he is done, hopefully this time he is telling the truth and will not see him again, but if he changes his mind and wants to participate in mature discussions he is more than welcome, but if he comes back again to post yet again how he is done then we will make sure that the 3rd time is a charm.

Almost everyone has been very mature about the whole deal and we should be grateful, I´m very proud of the members of this forum, proving that we are mature enough and that we are real OW fans and can disagree without being childish.


He had not posted here at all since November, then this starts:


Man I Love Champ Car, But Enough Is Enough I'm Done
Both Series Can Go Stick It!!


:mad:


Won't watch I am done You can Have Your IRL and the 500

Off to ALMS & F-1 Heck I would rather wach the Russell Series in Sonoma
Than the B-Leauge IRL

Another Lost Fan
Way To Go TG


Laguna 94

I am off to F-1 &ALMS
No Crap Wagons For Me

I will have nothing to do With anything associated With TG And His B-League
series

Man This Stnks!! :(


Hey we have a right to b******
After what TG has done to ow over the past 12 years
your dam right I'm mad
and to boot they want us to watch Crap Wagons

SF Champ :(


IC can have his- shell of it self 500 and crap wagons

Off to F-1 & ALMS
Heck I'll take Club racing over IRL

SFChamp
One PO'd Open Wheel Fan
Thanks TG :(

Jose, it was more than two. I think there is more than enough here to warrant pulling life support, no?

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

One thing is to criticize, another is living to hate someone you've never met...

I hate what TG did to AOWR. I do not hate TG personally, although he does not inspire me to love him with his public persona.

[indycool]

IC grew up with the Indianapolis 500 and May every year is a holiday to him. IC has also been for one series all along. IC has always been an oval-track fan as a preference because he grew up with it, but is a RACE fan and he also watches road racing with enthusiasm. IC DOES think that street racing, if not done properly or not able to be done properly, should not embarrass the sport. IC also knows that road racing people and oval racing people have argued about which way is best for 40-50 years and that's unlikely to change.

So, with the melding of the series, yes, IC is a happy camper and he's had three calls already from old friends who haven't been to town in years about staying at his place for the "500."

[jarrambide]

IC grew up with the Indianapolis 500 and May every year is a holiday to him. IC has also been for one series all along. IC has always been an oval-track fan as a preference because he grew up with it, but is a RACE fan and he also watches road racing with enthusiasm. IC DOES think that street racing, if not done properly or not able to be done properly, should not embarrass the sport. IC also knows that road racing people and oval racing people have argued about which way is best for 40-50 years and that's unlikely to change.

So, with the melding of the series, yes, IC is a happy camper and he's had three calls already from old friends who haven't been to town in years about staying at his place for the "500."

Just to clarify this, you are talking about yourself right?

[indycool]

Yes.

[garyshell]

IC grew up with the Indianapolis 500 and May every year is a holiday to him. IC has also been for one series all along. IC has always been an oval-track fan as a preference because he grew up with it, but is a RACE fan and he also watches road racing with enthusiasm. IC DOES think that street racing, if not done properly or not able to be done properly, should not embarrass the sport. IC also knows that road racing people and oval racing people have argued about which way is best for 40-50 years and that's unlikely to change.

So, with the melding of the series, yes, IC is a happy camper and he's had three calls already from old friends who haven't been to town in years about staying at his place for the "500."


I'll stick with the "third person theme" and ask:

garyshell wants to know what IC thinks of the chassis rules and setups which allow the drivers to be able to run at 100% throttle on most, if not all, of the ovals?

Could you ask IC for me? <grin>

Gary

[Rudy Tamasz]

I don't hate TG indeed. I think I love him. We Christians condemn the sin but we love the sinner. Is there a chance to give him a hug? Will he be available in May?

[TU Homer]

Nope. CART went bankrupt. It was no more. That left the IRL as the only series....until the bankruptcy hearing. That's NOT revisionist. But as I said, the big kids put the SPORT first with this deal and who gained or lost what is really irrelevant for the future.

That is an absurd comment, propogated by those that wished upon a star that TG had won the court case. CART was purchased by CCWS, which ran the series as a continuum of CART. The fact that my company was just purchased does not mean that there was a cessation of existance; it means it was purchased by someone else and continued on under a different ownership group. Long Beach GP was purchased, yet no one says it ceased to exist and is now COMPLETELY different under Aquarium.

I stand by my comments that there has been a continuum since 1978. The incumbant was CART and then CCWS. CCWS occupied the same int'l racing body seats, and was recognized by all promoters, tracks, and teams as the continuum of CART. Only you and a few IRListas don't recognize that.


-TU

[cartpix]

IC grew up with the Indianapolis 500 and May every year is a holiday to him. IC has also been for one series all along. IC has always been an oval-track fan as a preference because he grew up with it, but is a RACE fan and he also watches road racing with enthusiasm. IC DOES think that street racing, if not done properly or not able to be done properly, should not embarrass the sport. IC also knows that road racing people and oval racing people have argued about which way is best for 40-50 years and that's unlikely to change.

So, with the melding of the series, yes, IC is a happy camper and he's had three calls already from old friends who haven't been to town in years about staying at his place for the "500."

At last, we now know who IC really is. Bob Dole! ;-)

Jeff

[indycool]

Gary as far as chassis and setups go and full throttle, I don't have problem with it. As Bobby Unser once said, those guys are driving within inches of where they need to be to gain inches at 200-plus miles an hour and that in itself shows some pretty exciting racecraft. I got to watch Tom Sneva in traffic a few times and that was something.

TU, CART went bankrupt. Long Beach didn't go bankrupt. Probably your company didn't go bankrupt. CART went bankrupt. Big difference.

[Easy Drifter]

Hands up everyone who hates Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Porsche because they are German and because of WW11.
Same with Toyota and Honda and Mitsibushi (think Zero) because of Japan and WW11.
That makes about as much sense as hating TG and IRL.
IC: I grew up as a road racer but love all racing as you appear to. I do not always agree with you but do 90% of the time.

[garyshell]

Gary as far as chassis and setups go and full throttle, I don't have problem with it. As Bobby Unser once said, those guys are driving within inches of where they need to be to gain inches at 200-plus miles an hour and that in itself shows some pretty exciting racecraft. I got to watch Tom Sneva in traffic a few times and that was something.

I just don't see the point of the "100% throttle all the way around" setup, I think it detracts from the racing, a lot. It takes away an opportunity for one person to out duel another as to who is willing to go deeper into the corner at full throttle. It, to me, reduces opportunities for passing. When you watched Sneva in traffic, he was not driving against other guys who didn't have to lift for a corner, nor was he able to drive without lifiting. I don't think that lifting would affect what Bobby said in your quote above, either. I think it puts the driver back into the equation. They have to steer, work the throttle and god forbid maybe even brake or shift on an oval. Now it is all steering and little else.

Gary

[garyshell]

Hands up everyone who hates Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Porsche because they are German and because of WW11.
Same with Toyota and Honda and Mitsibushi (think Zero) because of Japan and WW11.
That makes about as much sense as hating TG and IRL.

The operative word is in bold here: "as much sense as hating TG and IRL".

Who says it has to be BOTH? To use your analogy, I can hate Hilter and love BMW. Just like I can hate "...king George" and grow to love the IRL. (PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT in any way equating "...king George" and Hitler. I am only using your analogy to illustrate the point.)

Gary

[TU Homer]

Gary as far as chassis and setups go and full throttle, I don't have problem with it. As Bobby Unser once said, those guys are driving within inches of where they need to be to gain inches at 200-plus miles an hour and that in itself shows some pretty exciting racecraft. I got to watch Tom Sneva in traffic a few times and that was something.

TU, CART went bankrupt. Long Beach didn't go bankrupt. Probably your company didn't go bankrupt. CART went bankrupt. Big difference.

Yes, my company did go bankrupt. In fact, it was a pre-packaged bankruptcy, not too different from the CART BK. My company reorganized with different ownership group, going from public to privately held. We were still recognized by the regulatory bodies that manage my industry, without interupption. We held our same industry positions, and were known as the continuation of the public company, though we had a different name and different ownership group.

If CCWS and CART had no connection, what right did CCWS have to run at LB in 2004? Hint: The answer is obvious.


-TU

[Dave Brock]

I hate what TG did to AOWR. I do not hate TG personally, although he does not inspire me to love him with his public persona.

NOT ONE PERSON HERE has had TG COST him the kind of POTENTIAL monies that TG cost me.....well into $xx,xxx, and it came at a time after devoting months to a project and thousands of $.
I have never whined once about this in 13 years on ANY forum. YES it did bundle my undies for a while until I was told that my proposal would have violated another companies contract with IMS and that they were consulted before a final decision was made...business is business.
In hindsight I realize that my efforts caused change BUT it left true long term fans of The Speedway short of a precious potential they could have realized.
It wasn't Tony himself that strung me out & cost me $, it was some frat stooge named Dave Morocnik who has since gone on to White Castle or some other "better" place.

The can be no better ruler of AOWR considering the pretenders who have come and gone during his tenure.

[TU Homer]

NOT ONE PERSON HERE has had TG COST him the kind of POTENTIAL monies that TG cost me.....well into $xx,xxx, and it came at a time after devoting months to a project and thousands of $.
I have never whined once about this in 13 years on ANY forum. YES it did bundle my undies for a while until I was told that my proposal would have violated another companies contract with IMS and that they were consulted before a final decision was made...business is business.
In hindsight I realize that my efforts caused change BUT it left true long term fans of The Speedway short of a precious potential they could have realized.
It wasn't Tony himself that strung me out & cost me $, it was some frat stooge named Dave Morocnik who has since gone on to White Castle or some other "better" place.

The can be no better ruler of AOWR considering the pretenders who have come and gone during his tenure.

Tony should focus on IMS and not the sanctioning body. He's splintered open-wheel racing, perhaps beyond repair.


-TU

[!!WALDO!!]

That is an absurd comment, propogated by those that wished upon a star that TG had won the court case. CART was purchased by CCWS, which ran the series as a continuum of CART. The fact that my company was just purchased does not mean that there was a cessation of existance; it means it was purchased by someone else and continued on under a different ownership group. Long Beach GP was purchased, yet no one says it ceased to exist and is now COMPLETELY different under Aquarium.

I stand by my comments that there has been a continuum since 1978. The incumbant was CART and then CCWS. CCWS occupied the same int'l racing body seats, and was recognized by all promoters, tracks, and teams as the continuum of CART. Only you and a few IRListas don't recognize that.


-TU

Wow, one problem since November 1st, 1978 was "what is CART"? Since the Sports Writers, Fans and sponsors did not know what was CART or "CART Cars" it made the "brand" weak at best. Best thing to happen was allowing the name "Indy Car" to be brought into the mix. Sports Writers, Fans and sponsors knew what those cars were.
Over my years, I have seen these cars called "Big Cars", Championship Cars and eventually Indy Cars. This "formula" has always had an identity crisis and when the "formula" changed in 1997, the "Formula" now had an identity and even though the other series had Penskes, Reynards and Lolas, it still had a problem as there were two types of Championship Cars. USAC Silver Crown, (Championship Dirt Cars) and CART.
You may have cared, as did I but the balance of the racing public only cared about racing at the lowest common dominator.
See also, CART/CCWS had no history. Foyt won 7 titles and CART gives him 6 titles. He had 69 wins but CART gives him 0. Also Roger McCluskey shows up in their alumni pages for driving the USAC Sanctioned 1979 500, his only race "in CART" but he was 1973 National Champion.
So they grabbed part of the history but not all the history. That is kind of like writing the history of WWII and only writing about U.S. Victories and ignoring the defeats.
Sorry to say but you lost this war, money got too precious for some and not worth urinating away on a false hope and a dream that TG, the IRL and the Indy 500 will go away.

[DBell]

Sorry to say but you lost this war, money got too precious for some and not worth urinating away on a false hope and a dream that TG, the IRL and the Indy 500 will go away.

So Champcar lost the war. True enough. With your wealth of knowledge
!!WALDO!!, I'm sure you know what the term Pyrrhic Victory means. That's what Tony ended up with.

I know all the TG apologist love to tell us how CART was doomed without the split, that Tony saved us all. Fact is that CART was big and OW now has trouble beating infomercials in TV ratings. CART may or may not have failed without the split, but TG Did fail and these are the ashes that are left.

[indycool]

This isn't about winners and losers. It's about the SPORT winning by becoming one series instead of two.

There are some individuals and entities which lost something and some who gained something. And becoming one series might well give those who lost something to gain something.

But the SPORT is better off.

[qwinsee]

The two series were split into two failing products. The car count won't make the IRL successful, 08 is still the same old IRL. Nothing from the press confrence indicated that TG was going to do much to his formula. He thinks he's doing a great job! He gave some grey answers that they may do this or do that. Close your eyes and cross your fingers and hope TG gets some divine enlightment.

[indycool]

There was very little from that press conference to document. TG didn't say he WASN'T going to do anything with the formula, either. And if he does one or the other, someone will complain. Main point of that conference was to lay out that it's one series, they're trying to absorb several CC races into '08 and '09 was a clean sheet of paper. And that's pretty much all you can read into it.

[DBell]

paper.

Paper? How does Pat figure into this? (Sorry, only kidding, couldn't resist. :D )

[Rex Monaco]

Sorry to say but you lost this war, money got too precious for some and not worth urinating away on a false hope and a dream that TG, the IRL and the Indy 500 will go away.

There you go, drinking the cool aide again.

This war is over because both sides came to their senses and realized that neither of them was strong enough to survive.

[!!WALDO!!]

There you go, drinking the cool aide again.

This war is over because both sides came to their senses and realized that neither of them was strong enough to survive.

So in sports, one team wins and another loses. Does the winning team gloat forever and does the losing team cry and whine forever? The game ended because people realized that the CCWS could not answer the bell when only one out of three wanted to pee away more money. The game ended by default or forfeit if you will.
No, it is about getting over it. Me, I could care less about this deal as it accomplishes very little to solve the problem hurting open wheel racing in the short term and the long term I see even more serious problems. Personally I have no use for any of the team owners that were left in the CCWS. The only reason they stayed was so they could be the big fish in a small pond rather than running 5th or worse in the IRL. Too bad you and some of your friends do not understand the politics that kept some teams in the CCWS and not leaving for more sponsorship opportunities, more purse and good checks.
Oh BTW it is Kool-Aid, if you are going to insult my intelligence then get it right.

[!!WALDO!!]

So Champcar lost the war. True enough. With your wealth of knowledge
!!WALDO!!, I'm sure you know what the term Pyrrhic Victory means. That's what Tony ended up with.

See reading the last sentence rather than the whole post puts things in a different context. So since you didn't read it here it is again:
Wow, one problem since November 1st, 1978 was "what is CART"? Since the Sports Writers, Fans and sponsors did not know what was CART or "CART Cars" it made the "brand" weak at best. Best thing to happen was allowing the name "Indy Car" to be brought into the mix. Sports Writers, Fans and sponsors knew what those cars were.
Over my years, I have seen these cars called "Big Cars", Championship Cars and eventually Indy Cars. This "formula" has always had an identity crisis and when the "formula" changed in 1997, the "Formula" now had an identity and even though the other series had Penskes, Reynards and Lolas, it still had a problem as there were two types of Championship Cars. USAC Silver Crown, (Championship Dirt Cars) and CART.
You may have cared, as did I but the balance of the racing public only cared about racing at the lowest common dominator.
See also, CART/CCWS had no history. Foyt won 7 titles and CART gives him 6 titles. He had 69 wins but CART gives him 0. Also Roger McCluskey shows up in their alumni pages for driving the USAC Sanctioned 1979 500, his only race "in CART" but he was 1973 National Champion.
So they grabbed part of the history but not all the history. That is kind of like writing the history of WWII and only writing about U.S. Victories and ignoring the defeats.

See as a historian of the sport, I hated to see the corruption of the history but I lost that war and I got over it. Maybe if you read and comprehended what I said then it puts the final line into context. The context that requires us to "get over it". I know TU for years and I bet he understood.


I know all the TG apologist love to tell us how CART was doomed without the split, that Tony saved us all. Fact is that CART was big and OW now has trouble beating infomercials in TV ratings. CART may or may not have failed without the split, but TG Did fail and these are the ashes that are left.

It was and lost over $250,000,000 in the 4 years and since the IPO it lost close to $500,000,000.
It is assumed that TG lost $300,000,000 because of the CART/CCWS loses. The truth is that number was 1/3 of that and occurred prior to 2001. Since then it went down to under $25,000,000 for 12 years.
The problem is also that math is a definite science and numbers do not lie. Truth is in 1995 the NASCAR races on the NASHVILLE NETWORK equaled those of CART on ABC. All other NASCAR races on WTBS, CBS, ABC, ESPN all beat the CART races. Only race that beat NASCAR was the USAC Indianapolis 500.
How do I know this? It made headlines in the racing publications of that year. Year before it fell apart.

Enjoy racing rather than hating. Hating is a waste of good emotions and causes stress. Stress causes heart problems and strokes. All that for what? A form of entertainment.

[TU Homer]

Nothing has destroyed open-wheel racing as much as Tony's decision to splinter the sport. We're still reeling from that decision. This pisses me off.

What I hate, is Tony's decision to produce a product to the consumer that is exactly what CART was in 1994. Granted, I know the airboxes and 3.5l engines, and ugly pointed noses are different. But from a schedule, team, and development program points of view, It's the same. This is why I hate.


-TU

[indycool]

Well, I guess, TU, you're just going to hafta go ahead and hate then. I hafta deal with a more pressing problem right now -- last year's phone book beside the toilet gets a little thin this time of year.

[!!WALDO!!]

Nothing has destroyed open-wheel racing as much as Tony's decision to splinter the sport. We're still reeling from that decision. This pisses me off.

I see after all these years you still hold on to the fantasy. Does a track owner have the right to establish their own rules? LeMans did it 20 years ago. Problem is from January of 1995 until April 4th, 1995 CART and the IRL had exactly the same rules. Because they lost Phoenix 3 days prior, they changed the rules on their chassis that would eventually cost the lifes of three CART drivers. This caused the 1995 500 to be the last attended en masse.


What I hate, is Tony's decision to produce a product to the consumer that is exactly what CART was in 1994.

Diminishing car count, Penske winning 12 out 16 races including 6 races with a 1-2-3 sweep. Did we have that in the IRL last year? End result=the product not the product=the end result.


Granted, I know the airboxes and 3.5l engines, and ugly pointed noses are different. But from a schedule, team, and development program points of view, It's the same. This is why I hate.


-TU

In 1994, a team in CART had a $15,000,000 budget per car and you could win back like Penske about $4,500,000 in a great year for the team.
Now it is around $5,000,000 per carand if Roger has a year with two cars win back about $5,000,000 for the team.
So a three car effort in 1994 cost $45,000,000 and they won back 10%. In 2008 for the same type of season $10,000,000 and they won back 50%. How is this not good?

So what do you hate? The car owners mandating rules that only strengthened Haas, Ganassi and Penske? One team winning 75% of the races and sweeping the podium 37.5%. Do you see this as good for the sport?
How about Car Owners serving as promoters? Like Haas and Penske. How about car owners having control of who go what engine? Bet you loved seeing a new Lola with an year old Ford winning the Michigan 500 because everyone else broke.

See I never hated what CART did because I understood human nature. I just knew that once they turned down the George/Mehl deal of 1991, which is not that much different than what you have now, that one day the 500 cars would look different. I suggested that to Roger McCluskey in 1988, change the formula.

I know I cannot change your mind as your hatred is deeply rooted but nearly die like I did I find hatred just a waste of emotion. If I were you I would go to the ALMS or something else because it will be too fustrating for you in the future and then a tightness occurs in your chest and it becomes game, set, match. You don't want TG to do that to you, do you? Then he won.


CP

[TU Homer]

I see after all these years you still hold on to the fantasy. Does a track owner have the right to establish their own rules? LeMans did it 20 years ago. Problem is from January of 1995 until April 4th, 1995 CART and the IRL had exactly the same rules. Because they lost Phoenix 3 days prior, they changed the rules on their chassis that would eventually cost the lifes of three CART drivers. This caused the 1995 500 to be the last attended en masse.



Diminishing car count, Penske winning 12 out 16 races including 6 races with a 1-2-3 sweep. Did we have that in the IRL last year? End result=the product not the product=the end result.



In 1994, a team in CART had a $15,000,000 budget per car and you could win back like Penske about $4,500,000 in a great year for the team.
Now it is around $5,000,000 per carand if Roger has a year with two cars win back about $5,000,000 for the team.
So a three car effort in 1994 cost $45,000,000 and they won back 10%. In 2008 for the same type of season $10,000,000 and they won back 50%. How is this not good?

So what do you hate? The car owners mandating rules that only strengthened Haas, Ganassi and Penske? One team winning 75% of the races and sweeping the podium 37.5%. Do you see this as good for the sport?
How about Car Owners serving as promoters? Like Haas and Penske. How about car owners having control of who go what engine? Bet you loved seeing a new Lola with an year old Ford winning the Michigan 500 because everyone else broke.

See I never hated what CART did because I understood human nature. I just knew that once they turned down the George/Mehl deal of 1991, which is not that much different than what you have now, that one day the 500 cars would look different. I suggested that to Roger McCluskey in 1988, change the formula.

I know I cannot change your mind as your hatred is deeply rooted but nearly die like I did I find hatred just a waste of emotion. If I were you I would go to the ALMS or something else because it will be too fustrating for you in the future and then a tightness occurs in your chest and it becomes game, set, match. You don't want TG to do that to you, do you? Then he won.


CP


Wow, that's sorta exhausting. Don't worry about my hatred. It doesn't eat me up. I have a family, a job, activities in my life. One of my loves, open-wheel racing, is virtually non-existant. What I hate is that Tony started a competing league which destroyed open-wheel racing in the US. Now, he's turned his vision into exactly the same product as he sought to destroy. Certainly some differences, but to the consumer, identical.

Does that make sense to you? Certainly some issues with CART back then. I've always stated that Tony should have just bought or started a team, and he would have had equal voting rights. Given the fact that he is also a promoter and owner of a track, and his rights would have been stronger.

Let me ask you, in response to all your pontificating...
would we have been better off with Tony starting a team, or starting IRL? I know what I believe.

[TU Homer]

Well, I guess, TU, you're just going to hafta go ahead and hate then. I hafta deal with a more pressing problem right now -- last year's phone book beside the toilet gets a little thin this time of year.

why don't you make a few more posts to raise money to buy a roll of TP? Otherwise, I have a few spare phone books you can use to wipe yourself.

[weeflyonthewall]

This isn't about winners and losers. It's about the SPORT winning by becoming one series instead of two.

There are some individuals and entities which lost something and some who gained something. And becoming one series might well give those who lost something to gain something.

But the SPORT is better off.

What sport? Open wheel racing or TG's version of it? The losers are the fans. The ones who planned to go to Cleveland, Road America, Toronto, Houston and celebrate CC's return to Laguna Seca. What do teams with DP01's have to gain by this? We are going backwards by turning the DP01 into a white elephant. There is no way any IRL participant will admit the DP01 is a much better looking race car and technologically superior. Elan should be publicly encouraged to develop an oval package and use the DP09 rear airbox cowling & cover and evaluate mounting for the current Honda engine. Panoz has the IRL experience and could have a test car for May testing at IMS. That would be a signal of compromise by TG.

[TU Homer]

What sport? Open wheel racing or TG's version of it? The losers are the fans. The ones who planned to go to Cleveland, Road America, Toronto, Houston and celebrate CC's return to Laguna Seca. What do teams with DP01's have to gain by this? We are going backwards by turning the DP01 into a white elephant. There is no way any IRL participant will admit the DP01 is a much better looking race car and technologically superior. Elan should be publicly encouraged to develop an oval package and use the DP09 rear airbox cowling & cover and evaluate mounting for the current Honda engine. Panoz has the IRL experience and could have a test car for May testing at IMS. That would be a signal of compromise by TG.

Good comments. Revisionists don't see any value in those venues. They don't see any value or evolution in the DP01. Granted, there are quality concerns with the current DP01, but the car looks great, and is an evolution of the historical indycar. It would speak volumes about Tony's intent if he moved toward adopting this car, or a next-gen DP car. But he won't. The same IRListas that described the Lola as "long in tooth" and unsafe due to its age are now in favor of the 2002 Dallara.


-TU

[garyshell]

Good comments. Revisionists don't see any value in those venues. They don't see any value or evolution in the DP01. Granted, there are quality concerns with the current DP01, but the car looks great, and is an evolution of the historical indycar. It would speak volumes about Tony's intent if he moved toward adopting this car, or a next-gen DP car. But he won't. The same IRListas that described the Lola as "long in tooth" and unsafe due to its age are now in favor of the 2002 Dallara.


-TU


Why are you so dead certain that a next generation of DP will not be in the cards for ICS? And the IRListas may be in favor of the 2002 Dallara, but it is gone come 2010.

To be honest with you, I see the DP01 (a beauty) as no more of an evolution of the historical indycar than the Dallara (an ugly pig to be sure). As far as I know, Panoz has no more legacy as a indycar builder than the Dallara folks.

Gary

[indycool]

weefly, the sport of Indy car racing. There is one series now instead of two.

Now, did some places drop off the schedule for '08 because of contracts? Sure. The IRL had contracts signed. CC didn't. Road America and Laguna Seca were track rentals. The others, IMO, lose money. If ENOUGH fans wanted to go to those places, they wouldn't have lost money. The fans look to have a 19-race schedule in ONE series with a clean sheet of paper for '09.

You're just carrying a CC flag that already came down the pole for good.

Gary, we hafta stop agreeing, like you said earlier. G-Force, then Panoz, and Dallara built the cars the IRL uses today. The only place the Panoz was used last year was at Indy because it proved uncompetitive elsewhere. That's certainly not to say that Panoz doesn't have a reasonable relationship with the IRL to be considered as a manufacturer for 2010....or Swift, or Lola, or anyone else. Right now, the Dallara is the car if choice. It has been cyclical through the years, the March, the Lola, the Cosworth, the Chevy, and on and on back through the last century.

[jimispeed]

As of now, the cars are hideous looking IMO!!

Make them fast, sleek and sexy!!

I have never seen an IRL car that I liked....

If these kinds of things don't change, then I won't watch!!

Part of my enjoyment of watching open wheel has always been the look and performance of the car.

If I choose to watch this year, obviously I'll have to choke through it.

There is nothing worse than a great driver in an under performing car!

[!!WALDO!!]

Why are you so dead certain that a next generation of DP will not be in the cards for ICS? And the IRListas may be in favor of the 2002 Dallara, but it is gone come 2010.

To be honest with you, I see the DP01 (a beauty) as no more of an evolution of the historical indycar than the Dallara (an ugly pig to be sure). As far as I know, Panoz has no more legacy as a indycar builder than the Dallara folks.

Gary

What next generation of DP01? They never finished the run of the first. They were to build 35 and built 25.

I know this will tip over the e-hive but I am sure to hit the price restriction put on by the CCWS and to allow, Elan, (Designer), Panoz (Builder) and CCWS (Seller) enough room to make money, this car had to used molds that existed for the Panoz (G-Force) car.

So your "beauty" has some Carpwagon in it.

Dallara has been involved since January of 1996 when it was announced they would be a supplier in January of 1997.
March actually did not survive that long. Lotus was 7 years, Eagles were about that long continuous. McLaren from 1970-1979.

So who now has historical indy car status? Watson?

[indycool]

jimispeed, run an '87 March, an '05 Dallara and a '99 Lola, all painted the same, side-by-side down the frontstretch at Indy in front of 10 people at 200 miles an hour and ask them to tell which is which. Again, to the GENERAL sports fan, IMO, it's four wheels with an engine in the back and wings on front and rear and, if lucky, some company's name on the sidepod.

[grungex]

I know this will tip over the e-hive but I am sure to hit the price restriction put on by the CCWS and to allow, Elan, (Designer), Panoz (Builder) and CCWS (Seller) enough room to make money, this car had to used molds that existed for the Panoz (G-Force) car.

I'm sure, as always, you have some proof to back up this assertion... :rolleyes:

[!!WALDO!!]

I'm sure, as always, you have some proof to back up this assertion... :rolleyes:

Yup, the article by John Oreovicz after its coming out in San Jose in 2006. A whole article about the design and manufacturing and the cost savings over a Lola. Yes it was in NSSN with a design breakdown. July of 2006.

I have plenty of proof of all I post but it is up to you to believe, if you don't I could put it in front of your eyes, you will reject it out of hand.

I am sitting with a post that would prove my point on the Insurance but the Thread is locked. That way the drones in the e-hive have a free shot at me.

[garyshell]

Why are you so dead certain that a next generation of DP will not be in the cards for ICS? And the IRListas may be in favor of the 2002 Dallara, but it is gone come 2010.


What next generation of DP01? They never finished the run of the first. They were to build 35 and built 25.

And exactly what does that count of cars have to do with what they might or might not do when the specs for the 2010 ICS car is announced? Zero, zip, zilch, nada.


To be honest with you, I see the DP01 (a beauty) as no more of an evolution of the historical indycar than the Dallara (an ugly pig to be sure). As far as I know, Panoz has no more legacy as a indycar builder than the Dallara folks.



I know this will tip over the e-hive but I am sure to hit the price restriction put on by the CCWS and to allow, Elan, (Designer), Panoz (Builder) and CCWS (Seller) enough room to make money, this car had to used molds that existed for the Panoz (G-Force) car.

So your "beauty" has some Carpwagon in it.


Where did I say ANYTHING about the Panoz IRL car when I said the Dallara was ugly? (BTW the word is Crapwagon, not Carpwagon.) I was comparing the Dallara with the current Panoz DP01 car. Then, right on cue, you want to introduce some spurious comments about the Panoz ICS car. So what if it did use some of the same mold pieces. It still looks better than the Dallara does.


Dallara has been involved since January of 1996 when it was announced they would be a supplier in January of 1997.
March actually did not survive that long. Lotus was 7 years, Eagles were about that long continuous. McLaren from 1970-1979.

So who now has historical indy car status? Watson?

The entire point of the discussion of legacy was in response to the original poster saying: "Granted, there are quality concerns with the current DP01, but the car looks great, and is an evolution of the historical indycar." I said Panoz had no claim to any historical legacy.

And then along comes Mr. History book, looking for some excuse for an argument. I said Panoz has no claim to the historical legacy of indycars. Get it NO CLAIM! What part of that was so hard to understand? Oh, I know the part where you get to break out the history book and tell all us know nothings how much you know about the sports legacy.

Give it a rest already.

Gary

[ShiftingGears]

What sport? Open wheel racing or TG's version of it? The losers are the fans. The ones who planned to go to Cleveland, Road America, Toronto, Houston and celebrate CC's return to Laguna Seca.

For the people who bought tickets for CCWS events, yes they lost out.

Look at the big picture. We no longer have two series fighting for the affection of the American public while they're walking away from the politics and in-fighting towards NASCAR. Surely you can see that?


What do teams with DP01's have to gain by this? We are going backwards by turning the DP01 into a white elephant. There is no way any IRL participant will admit the DP01 is a much better looking race car and technologically superior.

As I have repeated many times, most fans do not care if the cars are high technology or not. They just want to see great racing. Which, more often than not, means there is a big technological compromise in the design of the car.

[Rudy Tamasz]

jimispeed, run an '87 March, an '05 Dallara and a '99 Lola, all painted the same, side-by-side down the frontstretch at Indy in front of 10 people at 200 miles an hour and ask them to tell which is which. Again, to the GENERAL sports fan, IMO, it's four wheels with an engine in the back and wings on front and rear and, if lucky, some company's name on the sidepod.

It's good to know somebody warns you that he thinks you're clinically dumb and can't tell your right hand from your left hand.

So you seriously think we OW fans don't care about how nice a race car looks? We don't see the beauty of the tracks like Road America? We don't appreciate how much courage and skills it takes to make a pass for the lead between the concrete wall of Long Beach? We don't hold our breath when our boys go four wide in the first turn at Cleveland?

Instead we should buy that mantra about the unified sport and racers famous for their dancing skills and sexy looks. I indeed mean buy it with our dollar and swallow whatever a couple guys at Indy will shove down our collective throats.

Nor gonna happen. I like real racing. Unified or not, improve the on-track product or get lost.

[indycool]

How nice a race car looks, to the GENERAL fan, is how snazzy the paint job is. Quite honestly, the PRETTIEST race cars I know of are the west coast supermodifieds, all different, all products of the speed shoppers' art.

I have eaten enough double brots and drank enough at Siebkens to understand the beauty of Road America. If it becomes, again, financially prudent to do again, I'm all for it, I'm sure Road America will be for it and the IRL will be for it. But nobody's gonna do it any more and lose money. That's just business.

If you've seen many passes for the lead at Long Beach, you're ahead of me.

Of course Cleveland's exciting. Cleveland's layout is unique in that you can see almost a whole road course from the stands and follow the cars, something you can't do elsewhere. IF it can become financially prudent to do so, I'm sure a promoter in Cleveland will be for it and the IRL will be for it. But nobody's gonna do it any more and lose money. That's just business.

[tbyars]

It's good to know somebody warns you that he thinks you're clinically dumb and can't tell your right hand from your left hand.

So you seriously think we OW fans don't care about how nice a race car looks? We don't see the beauty of the tracks like Road America? We don't appreciate how much courage and skills it takes to make a pass for the lead between the concrete wall of Long Beach? We don't hold our breath when our boys go four wide in the first turn at Cleveland?

Instead we should buy that mantra about the unified sport and racers famous for their dancing skills and sexy looks. I indeed mean buy it with our dollar and swallow whatever a couple guys at Indy will shove down our collective throats.

Nor gonna happen. I like real racing. Unified or not, improve the on-track product or get lost.

Rudy, I will say what I have said so many times in the past. That is all your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.

What looks good on the track is a matter of your taste. There are no absolutes. What you define as "real racing" is nothing but your opinion. As I said in another thread, NOTHING in racing is more spectacular to me than close open wheel OVAL racing. That is MY opinion, and it's every bit as valid as yours.

If you like the product, watch it. If you don't, then yes, this is the world as it now exists. Quite frankly, if you don't like the product, you'll be the one who gets left behind, and it is you, unfortunately, that will need to "get lost."

That fan turnover has always been a reality of an ultimately unified series. It may be one step back before we can take two steps forward. But the sport will now move forward, with or without you. Totally your choice. Chose wisely. You'll be welcome if you come along, and won't be impressing anyone but about 100 very bitter, unhappy posters at homebase if you don't.

[The_Viceroy]

It sounds to the decision was IRL or nothing so I have to think TG's offer was basically life or death for the teams. It needed to be done. Despite the announced schedule of races, they were obviously not going to bankroll the season again.

Exactly. KK was pulling the plug, Forsythe was done and Gentelozzi was clueless and drunk at some strip club. The schedule announcement was a sham because many of the events didn't even have signed contracts. KK needed the teams to stick around so he would have some leverage to bargain with. Had he not released a schedule, his ploy would have become obvious. Say what you want about TG, but Kalkhoven is the biggest con man to come down the pike in years.

[Rudy Tamasz]

That's business, indeed. And you should have a working business model to make a profit. That model should accomodate the needs of many groups of OW fans. You belong to the group of Indy patriots who will support anything built around '500 that has four wheels and two wing. That's legitimate. But don't take it for granted that everybody will buy that brand of patriotism, too.

It's been 13 years since the last 'unified' '500 and there are many new OW fans including those who's never seen it, who like street races, indentify racecars with Panoz and Lola and can pronounce foreign names. I'm putting this a bit simplistic, there are many pieces in the big OW picture, but if the unified series is not friendly to them they'll be off to F1 or ALMS in no time.

For now IRL isn't overly friendly. People call this a merger, which it wasn't. One series ceased its operation for whatever reason and the other series simply invited the remaining teams to join. That was that. IRL wouldn't even bother to make way for LB, CCWS crown jewel to its schedule. Maybe better news is to come but let's see how many former CCWS fans still follow IRL by '09.

And again, don't think people are idiots or omnivorous creatures. That asumption always backfires.

[nanders]

Give it a rest already.

Gary

I agree Gary, !!WALDO!! "the fact machine" is wearing me out.

[indycool]

I question that there're a SIGNIFICANT number of fans -- meaning hardcore, no-change F-Troop-type fans -- who identify with Panoz or Lola.

If there were so many street racing fans, what happened in San Jose and Denver and Las Vegas and even a radio station website in Edmonton reported that race lost $7 million over the first three years? How many people who attend a street race are only attending the party in town? If there's that many, why are CC TV ratings what they were?

The IRL wouldn't BOTHER to make way for Long Beach? Then why did TG & Clarke fly to Japan and talk to the Motegi people about switching dates when Long Beach couldn't because of the convention center? That's "bothering" as far as I'm concerned and correctable for '09. TG and KK came up with as good a solution as they were going to make for '08. Contracts for both events were in place, plans were made and tickets had been sold.

And by '09, they are Indy car fans or they're not. There is no CC left to be a fan of.

[Rex Monaco]

If you've seen many passes for the lead at Long Beach, you're ahead of me.

When you've been to LB as many times as I, you've even seen someone start from 15th and win. That's by memory, and I think it was Zanardi. But don't quote me on that.

Let's just say there was plenty of excitement to be found in the right seats. But I'm not saying where those seats were. I might want them back in a few years. But let's see if this series can succeed first.

It's one thing to go to the doctor and seek treatment, it's another thing to follow what the doctor prescribed. And this patient isn't healthy yet.

What they do with the chassis and engines rules will greatly determine if they survive or get placed on suicide watch.

Waldo wants to give them a loaded gun and place it to their head in another thread. I hope his vision fails for the sake of the sport.

[Rex Monaco]

How many people who attend a street race are only attending the party in town?

That's easy enough. Compare LB attendance with California Speedway when CART was running there, and then compare LB to the attendance of the IRL race that replaced CART at CS.

CART had many real fans in Southern California but the split drove many of them away.

[indycool]

I suppose if you want to compare them, you can. An old, venerable, traditional race in Long Beach, just down the Interstate from LAX that had been built over a number of years vs. a place with a new race where most LA residents would hafta drive for an hour to attend.

The past few years, Long Beach has built fewer seats. And California Speedway, for NASCAR, has difficulty selling out. In SOME ways, it's apples and oranges.

[Rudy Tamasz]

IC, correct me if I'm wrong, but your message has it that those who'd like to see some welcoming moves from IRL are F-Troop and hardcore and stuff. No need to appease them. Everything is fine the way it is. That's a legitimate, although very partisan view.

But what is the logic then? Why so much fuss about unification? If it was all so bad on the CCWS side, why so much attention to it and so many attempts to bite the pieces off it (LB, Cosworth)? You should have left us useless creatures behind to die by the road and then continue you brilliant success.

Now you get that chance. CCWS is dead, you don't need us, you got Danica and Helio (when he won his last title, BTW?) and you can run on all cylinders. You got everything except excuses for poor attendance and ratings. Remember in September when it is time to show the results.

[indycool]

My message, if I was the IRL, would be to welcome all teams and people and fans to the one series. Many of those people know each other, anyway. And that was the case when CART teams came over and ran the "500" during the split.

The IRL assigned CC teams to match up with IRL teams for baseline data on the Dallaras. That's a welcome.

Certainly, to someone who wants to be a fan of one series, I'd say welcome. I've ALWAYS been a fan of one series. If someone just wants to F-Troop it and say the cars are ugly and I hate TG and they don't run the place I'd like to attend at the time I'd like to attend there, and road racing needs more skill than oval racing, I don't consider that person a "fan." I consider them a "bench jockey," better suited for baseball.

In answer to your questions, Long Beach, Surfers and Edmonton apparently make some financial sense AND can be fit into an already-contracted IRL schedule for '08. IRL officials have said the '09 schedule is a "clean sheet of paper." I have seen nowhere that anything includes Cosworth. IMO, TG isn't even interested in buying Cosworth.

If an F-Troop soldier wants to come and watch the races, I have no problem with that...welcome him/her the same way.

So much FUSS about UNIFICATION? After 12 years of the split, all the harsh words and it's finally come back together, you feel the need to even ask?

[garyshell]

Certainly, to someone who wants to be a fan of one series, I'd say welcome. I've ALWAYS been a fan of one series. If someone just wants to F-Troop it and say the cars are ugly and I hate TG and they don't run the place I'd like to attend at the time I'd like to attend there, and road racing needs more skill than oval racing, I don't consider that person a "fan."


What about those if us who loathe "...king George" and think the Dallara is ugly, but despite that think the mix of road courses and ovals produces some of the best drivers as well as an exciting series and are ready for the racing to begin ASAP so we can go back to Indy and MidOhio? Do we get to still qualify as fans? <big ol' grin>

Gary

[downtowndeco]

I see it this way. For 12 years there has been a certain group that has been "F' this and F that and F TG & F the IRL." "We hate TG and IRL style of racing and would never watch, attend or support any series that had TG in charge or was like the IRL is any way."

Well, CC mismanaged itself right out of business so TG offered to pick up a few of the races and has welcomed the teams in. Even Jimmy Vasser has said that TG was "more than fair" and went out of his way to make the deal happen. But the bottom line was one side won and the other side lost.

And now the guys that have been acting like a bunch of jerks all these years, the ones who said they'd never support TG want him to make concessions so they feel welcome? So they will feel better? Unbelievable. You guys hitched yourselves to the SS CCWS and swore to go down with the ship rather than accept change. OK. Here's your chance. Let those of us who have a more positive outlook on the future move on.

[indycool]

Well, of course, Gary (big ol' grin). I don't think, for a crystalline moment, that every single thing done by a sport is going to be acceptable to 100 percent of the public.

From the old book, "Semi Tough," by Dan Jenkins about football, star running back Billy Clyde Puckett and his buddy, Shake Tiller, had a rating system for women from one to 10 (the forerunner, as of matter of fact, of the movie "10," except the movie reversed the categories). Their girlfriend, Barb, always claimed she was a "1," meaning the best. They kept telling her there wasn't any such thing as a 1 and she was the only 2 they ever knew. She was POed.

You're never going to please everybody all the time.

[Rex Monaco]

The past few years, Long Beach has built fewer seats. And California Speedway, for NASCAR, has difficulty selling out. In SOME ways, it's apples and oranges.

And that's why I gave you an apples to apples comparison of CART figures when CART raced at both places to the CART/IRL figures right after the IRL replaced CART.

Why would I ask you to compare last years LBGP attendance to last years California 500? That would be like asking you to compare last years Indy 500 attendance to last years Brickyard 400!

[garyshell]

You guys hitched yourselves to the SS CCWS and swore to go down with the ship rather than accept change.

To be a bit more precise, they hitched themselves to the SS ChampCarFanatics forum, where even the slightest dissent from the party line brought the gestapo (note the little g) down on your head with a 1, 2, 3...

Gary

[Rudy Tamasz]

IC and dtd, your condescending attitude is out of place here. I'm not a defeated country. If you prefer to speak about racing in business terms, I'm a customer, a pretty demanding one, that's true. Some basic politeness will not hurt for the beginning.

[garyshell]

IC and dtd, your condescending attitude is out of place here. I'm not a defeated country. If you prefer to speak about racing in business terms, I'm a customer, a pretty demanding one, that's true. Some basic politeness will not hurt for the beginning.


Rudy,

I think you are taking offense where none was intended. I think the messages from IC and DTD were both directed at a certain group of folks at ChampCarFanatics who have made their way here. I don't think they were intending to paint YOU with that brush. At least that is not the way I read it. My hatred for "...king George" is well documented here, yet I NEVER feel like either IC or DTD are talking about me when they mention the F-Troop folks.

In this medium of words on a screen, it is impossible to see the body language accompanying those words. And that loss of fidelity in meaning, often times leads to a misinterpretation of intent.

You may feel differently about this, and that's fine. But I just wanted to offer a different perspective.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Thanks Gary. Yes, fans who are demanding or finicky or who happen to like a certain type of racing, great, I have no problem with that. As a fan you have right to ask for whatever you want. You might not always get what you want but you have a legitimate right to ask.

But those who were not happy then, are not happy now, and, quite frankly, will never be happy unless TG dies a horrble death, the IMS gets destroyed by a tornado & the IRL goes BK, well, IMO, they are only looking to cause trouble and I could do without.

Cheers.

[garyshell]

But those who were not happy then, are not happy now, and, quite frankly, will never be happy unless TG dies a horrble death, the IMS gets destroyed by a tornado & the IRL goes BK, well, IMO, they are only looking to cause trouble and I could do without.

Except for the IRL BK part, I think you will find damn few of those folks here. Thankfully. Yes, we get a handful of the CCF brethren here, but I don't think many of those fit your description above. Yes, decidedly a few do however.

In the spirit of fence mendin' I do think the IRL loyalists here (and I say that term in a non accusatory or demeaning fashion) should think carefully about mentioning the "F-troop" types when replying here, unless you are directly addressing one of those "F-ools".

Gary

[indycool]

Thanks, Gary......no ill will or demeaning intended here, Rudy.....I thought I was responding to the topic, of which you originally brought up the hardcores. As the Speedway welcomed occasional CART team entrants for the "500" through the split years and the IRL is doing its best to welcome the CC teams, certainly those of us who were primarily interested in the IRL should welcome CC supporters to our supposed turf.

Regardless of who paid who what or who didn't, it's one series now and the SPORT wins rather than the individuals involved who may have gained or lost something in the process of getting there. I wouldn't expect people from CC sites like Toronto or Portland or Houston to be happy with how this went down. But the timing of it just wasn't going to accommodate it for this year. It appears that the STRENGTH of those events -- market, sponsorship, financial, creative -- will be considered for '09. The brass have said '09's schedule is a clean sheet of paper.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Okay, guys, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying and overreacted to it. I have my preferences with regard to racing but I wish everybody no evil and want the sport in general to prosper. I'm not entirely convinced by the current unification though but let's see how the events unfold. I still hope for the better.