Tony George says the new IRL will be like the old CART

[SoTex]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/wind-tunnel-sunday-to-focus-on-open-wheel-unification/

[bblocker68]

Thanks! I was just looking to post that thread, lol.

[Rogelio]

(First 5 minutes) I am slowly getting excited about the merger. Just a few comments about KK and TG, that is the opening of the interview. How dare KK blame the MEDIA for suppressing merger talks and that is the first thing that comes out of his mouth. The media, the fans, sponsors, etc... are not to blame. Also, TG rolling his eyes to open up his interview is rather childish. Well...let us see whatelse develops.

Not to mention both TG and KK look like a few deers caught in the headlights.

[SoTex]

On Wind Tunnel Tony George stated that he expect the new IRL to have an even mix of oval, road and street races. Also a good mix of American and Forgein drivers. If this is true, they can win this fan over.

[ykiki]

...also said that turbos may be part of the equation in the future.

[Rogelio]

I loved what Mario Andretti said about not following NASCAR around the country. The new merged series is a "different product" as Andretti said. It will take a while to right the ship but in the mean time let's take the best of both series. Maybe we did not lose.

[spiritone]

So, Cart Had The Right Vision All Along, Gee! I Was Just Jerking All The Fans Around For The Fun Of It.

The Real Problem All Along Was ( It Was Not About Tony)

[jimispeed]

I watched tonight, and I was suprisingly pleased!!

Hopefully his/their statements will become a reality!!

[CCFan]

Definitely hope for the future. 2008 will be somewhat sloppy, but 2009 should have a better schedule. 2010 will have a new car.

Hopefully, as Miller said, Cotman will be able to help bring the best of CC tech to the IRL. Reason to look ahead!

[Rogelio]

Definitely hope for the future. 2008 will be somewhat sloppy, but 2009 should have a better schedule. 2010 will have a new car.

Hopefully, as Miller said, Cotman will be able to help bring the best of CC tech to the IRL. Reason to look ahead!

I agree. It seems like we have taken the most important step and that is the merger. The reality is, the major players TG and KK and even Adretti, realize we are going to have an uphill battle. But it can and will be done. I would love to see the excitement that existed in Long Beach in the 90s.

[CHAMPMOM]

I sincerely hope that they can repair openwheel racing in America.

Best recipe for openwheel racing is mixing Ovals, Road courses and Street courses AND adding TURBOS.

[KyKiske]

I do hope that now things have come together, IndyCar can bring back some rivalries between car makers. Its one of the things I personally love, and think open wheel racing should be about. I'm not saying allow costs to go through the roof, but some competition between say Lola, Dallara and Panoz would be nice. Afterall if F3 and Grand-Am can do it, surely IndyCar, which no doubt hopes to place itself as the second best open-wheel series in the world (which frankly, is currently GP2), can too.

[KyKiske]

I do hope that now things have come together, IndyCar can bring back some rivalries between car makers. Its one of the things I personally love, and think open wheel racing should be about. I'm not saying allow costs to go through the roof, but some competition between say Lola, Dallara and Panoz would be nice. Afterall if F3 and Grand-Am can do it, surely IndyCar, which no doubt hopes to place itself as the second best open-wheel series in the world (which frankly, is currently GP2), can too.

[jwhite9185]

Panoz, Lola and Dallara for chassis.
Honda, Ford (Cosworth), and Chevy turbo engines.
Firsetone and Cooper tyres.

Sounds good to me!

[nigelred5]

I still don't like TG's demeanor that i saw last night. He said a few positive things that essentially recognize the strength of a CART style series and schedule, but it is that "duh, I dunno" attitud that I saw last night I still don't trust. once it's signed and delivered and CCWS is finally shut down totally, He can do as he pleases.

Maybe it was just a matter of the fact that they really don't know how things are going to happen bacause they honestly haven't gotten that far on the actual details of the reuinfication. An "agreement in principle" is far far away from having all of the details sorted. There's still gonna be a lot of breath- holding on my part for a long while.

[Ruben Barrios]

Seems to me TG has been slapped a little too... something in the tune of "Ok, you get to save face and you get to keep IRL going... but, but...but... We will move to change the formula, the chasis, etc.. or else..."

I would think some of the legal details are in this arena!!???

[SoTex]

TG never really did say whether turbos are being considered for the future. He said that they would look at all kinds of technologies for future engine formulas. He mentioned ethonal as an example.

[nigelred5]

"Be careful what you wish for" comes to mind.....! He's got no competing series to blame for anything.

[bblocker68]

I really doubt if we see turbo's in the future. Future technologies would be more appropriate. Turbo's in customer cars really only exiast on the diesel side for the most part. Normally aspirated cars can sound better than the IRL cars, you just have to tweak the exhaust system a little. I'd still like to see all of those Honda and Cossy V-10;s put into action from the F1 graveyard. A guy can wish, right?

Hopefully, they'll be thinking "green" for 2010 with alternative fuels and energy return systems in mind.

Hey, what's this strange "IndyCar" forum I just fell into :) :) :)

[Rogelio]

Whether turbo is old school or not, I think most of us would agree that Champ Car engins sound better than the current IRL cars. Even without turbo engines, they need to change the sound of the current IRL cars.

What I remember from my first CART race years ago at Long Beach was that sound coming down Shoreline Drive. It was unbelievable. I like NASCAR, but the sound of their cars is a joke.

[Ruben Barrios]

My car is a flat 6 NA engine... it sounds quite kick ass.... My bet is if you remove the muffler it would sound even better.... Motorcycles sound pretty good with resonators...

I don't see why turbo engines would sound better... it is all about the exahust design and rpms....

[garyshell]

You want sound? I got sound for ya' buds. Go to a CanAm reunion. Now that, my friends, is SOUND!

Gary

[ykiki]

You want sound? I got sound for ya' buds. Go to a CanAm reunion. Now that, my friends, is SOUND!

Gary

I did just that a couple summers ago at Pacific Raceways (formerly SIR) near Seattle. The sound was fantastic (especially when it echoes from the nearby hills).

[DBell]

So, Cart Had The Right Vision All Along, Gee! I Was Just Jerking All The Fans Around For The Fun Of It.

The Real Problem All Along Was ( It Was Not About Tony)


I was struck by this admission also. It was about the power of controlling everything.

If The future IRL fails to grab me, it won't be because I dislike TG. I think Bernie E. is a greedy midget with a huge Napoleon complex and I really dislike him, but I've followed F1 all these years regardless.

I've been to an average of 2-3 CART/CC races a year over the past 20 years. I'm willing to give this unification a chance, but my travel and wallet will be on hold for the next couple of years. They are going to show me a formula of engines and chassis that will appeal to me for me to spend my dollars on the new series. Watching on TV is as far as I go for now.

[Easy Drifter]

Mosport has a Can Am revival in June. Already 15 cars entered. Go to the VARAC site and click on Festival and you get a picture of an early race streaming down 4 (the Chute) into 5 led by the the Bruce and Denny show. Great sound and the ground really did shake!

[inimitablestoo]

New IRL the old CART?

So we should look for the announcement of a breakaway series in about 2023 then? ;)

[djparky]

that's good to hear- a nice mix of ovals and road courses- with any luck the Indy Car series will look at the traditional stomping grounds of Indy Car and bring them in first- Road America, Laguna Seca, Portland, Cleveland, Surfers Paradise, Toronto & Long Beach- the rest don't really matter to me that much- either way TG has got control and it's up to him now to run it and make it a success

[!!WALDO!!]

New IRL the old CART?

CART was run by 25 car owners who controlled Chassis and updates, Engines and who got them and with what update. They were self funded and always had some pennies at the end of the year.
Now it is run by a person that has money at risk, rather than those who lived on the sponsors dime and spent it to eliminate competition. CART of 1983 had 35 cars by 1985 under 30 by 1991 under 25. The series was heading south as Dick and Dianne Simon stuck 7 cars in the 1994 500 field due to weakness of equipment.

It will be better if people are brought in that have a passion rather than a warm body with no power like Andy Craig.

[Chaparral66]

The series has a lot of work to do, including the need to basically justify this new series to the fans, media, and sponsors. If Tony George is even willing to reconsider turbo engines, that would be a good step in the right direction. That might serve call to get Ford back in it and working with Cosworth again, and maybe another manufacturer like Audi, or even Nissan again. That would certainly drive up fan interest as it has done in ALMS, and if the fans start coming back, maybe the sponsors will too. It's going to take time, but we have the all important start that we've needed. Next: reconstruction.

[IMSA_Dude]

You want sound? I got sound for ya' buds. Go to a CanAm reunion. Now that, my friends, is SOUND!Give the Aston-Martin Lola coupe tests at Snetterton a good listen (it has the V12 from the DBR9 in it). I don't think I've heard anything quite like that since the old Matra sports-racers. That was posted to youTube a while back.

Not that there's anything wrong with a 917-30 or Shadow MkII.

[V12]

For fellow curious non-Americans like myself - I found the Windtunnel interview on good old YooChoob:

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv13DvGux5E
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuiVAf0ZwG0

[call_me_andrew]

CART was run by 25 car owners who controlled Chassis and updates, Engines and who got them and with what update. They were self funded and always had some pennies at the end of the year.
Now it is run by a person that has money at risk, rather than those who lived on the sponsors dime and spent it to eliminate competition. CART of 1983 had 35 cars by 1985 under 30 by 1991 under 25. The series was heading south as Dick and Dianne Simon stuck 7 cars in the 1994 500 field due to weakness of equipment.

It will be better if people are brought in that have a passion rather than a warm body with no power like Andy Craig.

So... New IRL the old USAC?

[!!WALDO!!]

So... New IRL the old USAC?

No, USAC was run by one member of the Indy, Sprints, Midgets and Stock Car representitives. These are the people that set the rules. CART had 25 and if you wanted the front line Ford or a new Lola then you allied yourself with Carl Haas.
So like MASCAR you have people set the rules that have "no dogs in the fight" thus everyone deals with it the same way.

[ezhop7]

Why are turbo-chargers so important? Will turbo-charger help in keeping the cost of engines down? Is having a turbo-charger important to engine maker or automakers who may want to enter the Indycar series? Does having turbo chargers make business sense in the economic state of the economy?

[!!WALDO!!]

Why are turbo-chargers so important? Will turbo-charger help in keeping the cost of engines down? Is having a turbo-charger important to engine maker or automakers who may want to enter the Indycar series? Does having turbo chargers make business sense in the economic state of the economy?


The current displacement rule for Turbos goes back to January 1st 1969. That year there was a reasonable balance of engines. George Follmer winning Phoenix with a 335 Chevy, Turbo-Fords, Turbo-Offys, Revson winning a heat at IRP with a 256 Repco, Offy, Fords, Weslake-Ford 320 and Art Pollard winning at Dover in a 335 Plymouth.
A year later, all Turbo-Fords, Turbo-Offys and the dirt was swept by 255 Fords and Swede Savage winning Phoenix with a Weslake after McCluskey ran out of fuel on lap 150 of 150.

Turbos drove the sport away from developing new concepts and chased away Detroit from Indy Cars. Worst thing it drove about a dozen teams out when Offys hit 1136HP and a Team like McLaren went through 25 engines in one Month.

I think it should come to an end. F-1 went that way and saw teams start to leave thus they dumped the Turbos. It killed Can-Am and in many ways buried CART and then the CCWS.

[call_me_andrew]

Well I can see turbos as a way to make the series stand apart from F1 and GP2, but with rumors that F1 may go back to turbos, that could easily go out the window.

While we're at it, why don't you just tell me what the AAA days were like.

[Rex Monaco]

Does having turbo chargers make business sense in the economic state of the economy?

Do V8's make business sense in the face of higher cafe standards and global warming?

I'd like to see to see the engine formula opened back up (at least at Indy) to include any engine that a manufacturer wants to develop and race. Gasoline, Ethanol, Diesel, turbo, rotary, hybrid or what have you. Let there be competition in the engine compartment again and let NASCAR be the archaic V8 based spec series.

[Rex Monaco]

Well I can see turbos as a way to make the series stand apart from F1 and GP2, but with rumors that F1 may go back to turbos, that could easily go out the window.

It seems to me that an easy way to attract engine makers back to Indy, would be to adopt an F1 engine formula.

[!!WALDO!!]

It seems to me that an easy way to attract engine makers back to Indy, would be to adopt an F1 engine formula.

Really? Easiest way is design the series to attract manufacturers that has the basic engine in production.

The dreaded Aurora program made money for GM after 100 copies were sold. So after 1997, the first year GM made money on that engine.

Notice that Detroit is not involved in F-1 because of expense. How many teams are running old Ferraris?

Remember the rules stated building of chassis and engines. Mad Max threw that out in favor of car count.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I still don't like TG's demeanor that i saw last night. He said a few positive things that essentially recognize the strength of a CART style series and schedule, but it is that "duh, I dunno" attitud that I saw last night I still don't trust. once it's signed and delivered and CCWS is finally shut down totally, He can do as he pleases.

Maybe it was just a matter of the fact that they really don't know how things are going to happen bacause they honestly haven't gotten that far on the actual details of the reuinfication. An "agreement in principle" is far far away from having all of the details sorted. There's still gonna be a lot of breath- holding on my part for a long while.

The thing is TG always looks kind of arrogant while not always saying the right thing at times. That said, i didn't see the show so I wont comment. I think Tony after 13 years maybe knows the old CART wasn't so bad after all since he has so far been on the road to recreating the mix that it had.

We gotta have faith on the ex CART/CCWS side of the ledger, we have no choice. That said, TG was smart enough to hire Cotman, and KK and GF made a mess of Champ Car so really, when you get down to it, we may be actually saved. Add in the good will of the teams and Mario Andretti sort of guiding Tony past the land mines, and we may look back in a decade and realize this was the only way to end the war and still have something left.

I lost faith in the Amigo's and their willingness to understand what they had. Tony put out an olive branch that finally made some sense, and we can all move on. I wont forget and forgive yet, but I figure KK and GF hurt the sport in the last 3 years as badly considering the stakes. It is over now.....and maybe something like the old CART takes off here....

[Rex Monaco]

The dreaded Aurora program made money for GM after 100 copies were sold. So after 1997, the first year GM made money on that engine.

And where is GM now? Some people seem to forget that racing is about winning and not making money.

[Chaparral66]

And where is GM now? Some people seem to forget that racing is about winning and not making money.

Are you kidding? Winning and money go together like peaches & cream. It's all about the money. Winning brings you attention, that attention draws a sponsor, and ...oh, for crying out loud, do I really need to explain this???

[ezhop7]

Chaparral right on!

[Rex Monaco]

...do I really need to explain this???

No, you need to read the posts before you attempt to respond.

Tell me how GM making money on their engines helped GM or the IRL.

I don't see GM around. So evidently them not winning was more important than them making money.

And who would of thought that an engine manufacturer would much rather spend money wining races instead of making money losing races? Well other than 99% of most racing fans.

[Rex Monaco]

Chaparral right on!

Then answer the question without his help.

Why is GM gone if they were making money on their engines?

[Alexamateo]

Then answer the question without his help.

Why is GM gone if they were making money on their engines?

Because Honda and Toyota came in and started kicking their butt and suddenly they weren't making money anymore. Then Honda started winning everything and drove Toyota out.

[Rex Monaco]

Because Honda and Toyota came in and started kicking their butt and suddenly they weren't making money anymore. Then Honda started winning everything and drove Toyota out.

But the original poster to whom I responded said that because of the production based engine spec, GM was able to make money on the Aurora after the 1st 100 engines. So was he wrong? Did they actually start losing money, despite the producton based engine specs?

Do you know for a fact that GM stopped making money on their engines when they stopped winning?

Because if your facts are correct, does this not also prove my point that winning is more important than cost contraints? It seems to me you are saying that it is winning, rather than engine specs, that is the key to racing success. Of which I agree.

[rabf1]

"My car is a flat 6 NA engine"

Mine too and it has 325 hp.

[nigelred5]

The thing is TG always looks kind of arrogant while not always saying the right thing at times. That said, i didn't see the show so I wont comment. I think Tony after 13 years maybe knows the old CART wasn't so bad after all since he has so far been on the road to recreating the mix that it had.

We gotta have faith on the ex CART/CCWS side of the ledger, we have no choice. That said, TG was smart enough to hire Cotman, and KK and GF made a mess of Champ Car so really, when you get down to it, we may be actually saved. Add in the good will of the teams and Mario Andretti sort of guiding Tony past the land mines, and we may look back in a decade and realize this was the only way to end the war and still have something left.

I lost faith in the Amigo's and their willingness to understand what they had. Tony put out an olive branch that finally made some sense, and we can all move on. I wont forget and forgive yet, but I figure KK and GF hurt the sport in the last 3 years as badly considering the stakes. It is over now.....and maybe something like the old CART takes off here....

That was just it, I wouldn't classify his demeanor as arrogant that night, it was more of a deer in the headlights, wtf just happened because I sure the heck don't know" kind of look. He had very few answers for or to anything IMO. I wish I could watch the press conference from Homestead right now. Dang government content restrictions.

[!!WALDO!!]

But the original poster to whom I responded said that because of the production based engine spec, GM was able to make money on the Aurora after the 1st 100 engines. So was he wrong? Did they actually start losing money, despite the producton based engine specs?

Do you know for a fact that GM stopped making money on their engines when they stopped winning?

Because if your facts are correct, does this not also prove my point that winning is more important than cost contraints? It seems to me you are saying that it is winning, rather than engine specs, that is the key to racing success. Of which I agree.


Did Toyota and Honda come in and start throwing money around? That took the 5 years of making money and turned it into losses once the had to build a new engine to compete, then when that engine was junk they went to Cosworth and spent more money.
Follow along please the Aurora program made money, the Chevy program gave it all back.

[Rex Monaco]

Did Toyota and Honda come in and start throwing money around? That took the 5 years of making money and turned it into losses once the had to build a new engine to compete, then when that engine was junk they went to Cosworth and spent more money.
Follow along please the Aurora program made money, the Chevy program gave it all back.

So manufacturers are in the motorsports to win and not in it to make money.

That's what I said. Try to keep up.

[nigelred5]

Well, considering GM killed off Oldsmobile in cost cutting measures, I suspect the Aurora program didn't increase sales of street cars as anticipated. The Aurora was a good car that should have been rolled into Saturn's product line where it would have actually fit. Despite the obvious differences in product line at the time, Their brand themes were so close they should have been one long befor ethey killed Oldsmobile.

Just because the engines program didn't cost GM, it didn't help them either.

[!!WALDO!!]

So manufacturers are in the motorsports to win and not in it to make money.

That's what I said. Try to keep up.

Look, a manufacturer needs a 7 to 8 time return on their investment. GM made money for their "over the counter" operation. Then it became way too costly to stay in the game. In the begining you had many different builders of the Aurora or Infiniti engines. As time went on it disappeared and once Toyota and Honda came in, Chevy now had to support teams with millions.

Not worth giving it all away.

So manufacturers need to make something or they will not be in it long. Is every maker of engines and cars in racing? Nope, because of money and a lack of return.

So I have 47 of my 54 years playing in this little game. I remember when races started 18 cars on the dirt and all were Meyer-Drake 251.9 engines. Where was Meyer-Drake's offices in Detroit, Paris, Frankfurt, Modena or Tokyo?

Difference between a builder/supplier and a manufacturer.

[Rex Monaco]

As time went on it disappeared and once Toyota and Honda came in, Chevy now had to support teams with millions.

Because Toyota and Honda are in racing to win at any COST. They entered the IRL to win and not to make a profit on their engine program. GM wasn't willing or able to spend as much to win.

And this new series won't be truly successful until they can attract car makers who are willing to spend money to win races.

Car makers do not enter top tiered racing series to make money. They enter racing to win races. If they were in it because they could make money, then each of these series would have had multiple car makers supplying them engines. But they didn't.

And you'd think that after 47 of 54 years of playing in this little game, that you'd have learned this very basic and important fact.

[bravefish]

Off the current topic I know, but for those that love the 'sound' have a look on youtube at John Watson in the 1978 Mclaren F1 round Brands Hatch - its got Italian commentary plastered all through, but there is enough breaks in it to be able to hear the screaming tones of the M23 - sounds f*cking fantastic and definitely worth a listen. Hard-on material for sure.

Just make sure the wife doesnt want sex any time shortly after you watch it, you'll be spent..

[!!WALDO!!]

Because Toyota and Honda are in racing to win at any COST. They entered the IRL to win and not to make a profit on their engine program. GM wasn't willing or able to spend as much to win.

Wrong, the IRL allowed engine leases that were ILLEGAL prior to Honda and Toyota coming in. Once the game changed they elected not to play. Notice that Toyota left also and Infiniti prior to that. Nothing to do with winning, it was return on their investment.


And this new series won't be truly successful until they can attract car makers who are willing to spend money to win races.

The Honda Engine is badged so what money are they spending. How many engine deals is Ferrari supporting in F-1.


Car makers do not enter top tiered racing series to make money. They enter racing to win races. If they were in it because they could make money, then each of these series would have had multiple car makers supplying them engines. But they didn't.

Wrong, they need a return on their investment otherwise they bail out. There are dozens of manufacturers sitting on the sidelines not willing to lose money.


And you'd think that after 47 of 54 years of playing in this little game, that you'd have learned this very basic and important fact.

I have and worked in it. One would assume that I would know more than you since your argument has nothing to do with money returning to the people making the investment.
I got an idea, build an engine and supply it for free to a Formula One team. How are you going to come out?
Not the same? Exactly what you are writing about. Me, Renault needs to sell cars to make this deal pay otherwise it pulls out.
It is called economic of the sport.

[Ruben Barrios]

"My car is a flat 6 NA engine"

Mine too and it has 325 hp.


Sounds like either a Targa, Carrera 4 or a Carrera... which one is it?

[Rex Monaco]

I got an idea, build an engine and supply it for free to a Formula One team. How are you going to come out?
Not the same? Exactly what you are writing about.

This is exactly what I'm writing about. So tell me how you think I will make money if I build an engine and supply it for free to an F1 team?

And using your other example does Ferrari make money on supplying it's engine to it's team? Or do they make money by selling licensed merchandise and using F1 to market their cars?

I reiterate, car manufactureres are in racing to win races. And they pay to win those races. Making money supplying engines is not why auto makers are in auto racing.

Why do you think Ford pulled out of F1? It was because they were not winning. And they didn't have the money that was needed to win.

And tell me that you don't really think that Honda isn't paying for much more than the cost of the 'badge' that is placed on their IRL engine?

[!!WALDO!!]

This is exactly what I'm writing about. So tell me how you think I will make money if I build an engine and supply it for free to an F1 team?

By selling cars, no other way. Winning only gets you press that's all. Ford won in Indy Cars loads of races in 1969 with the Turbo and non-Turbo DOHC and it investment did not equal return thus the sold the engine manufacturing to Foyt. So winning did not help.


And using your other example does Ferrari make money on supplying it's engine to it's team? Or do they make money by selling licensed merchandise and using F1 to market their cars?

Wrong, F-1 rules requires teams to field a third car if less than 18 cars entered. So which is cheaper, supplying an engine or having to field a third car for the season.


I reiterate, car manufactureres are in racing to win races. And they pay to win those races. Making money supplying engines is not why auto makers are in auto racing.

How to you regroup your losses. If you loses money and are privately owned you will go out of business. If you are government owned the powers look at this as wasting taxpayer money, the French government has already said things about Renault. Corporately owned, the stockholders want profit.


Why do you think Ford pulled out of F1? It was because they were not winning. And they didn't have the money that was needed to win.

The European division was losing money hand over fist, that is where the money came from. Ford itself is not in the best of shape. Why not Dodge or GM in F-1? No benefit and no way of speading the cost across the cars sold.


And tell me that you don't really think that Honda isn't paying for much more than the cost of the 'badge' that is placed on their IRL engine?

They are paying support money, sponsorship money for races and advertising money for TV, newspaper, programs and radio for the IRL. So if Ilmor owns the engines and they are $150,000 plus $75,000 in rebuilds and own 100 engines and a lease is $1,250,000 and there are 20 paid leases then how much does it cost Ilmor and how much revenue is generated on basic leases.
Considering they only need to replace engines that are destroyed they have at least 3 years to wipe the cost of the engine out.
So Honda is paying $5,000,000 and another $5,000,000 to $7,500,000 this year, one of the main reasons of the trip to Japan by TG.

So the Leases generate $25,000,000 annually and cost $12,500,000 so Honda puts up 20% for the excusive rights to the engine. So Ilmor engineering makes $17,500,000 per year off this deal. Honda is dropping another $12,500,000 with the IRL.
So figure $25,000,000. How many cars does Honda sell in North America? If 2,500,000 that means it is $10.00 per car to do this program.

If you sell only 25,000 cars in North America could that company afford this program? Yes, your car is 100 times more expensive than a Honda.

That is what everyone looks at, not trophies as they do not pay the bills.