At what point did the balance tile the IRL's way

[SoTex]

That is TILT the IRL's Way

I'm gonna say when Toyota and Honda left. They took Penske, Ganassi, Rahal and Andretti with them. They said they went where their sponsors wanted them to go. What a crock that was. Never could understand how those traitors could say such rubbish with such a straight face.

[Rogelio]

I think Penske, then Ganassi, saw the writing on the wall and that was life without the Indy 500. Here they were accountable for the horrible leadership of what was CART (Pook, etc...) and they just bailed. Whether, we can call them aka Nostradamus, I think they realized that their bailing would eventually bring about the demise of CART/Champ Car. Remember Rahal and Andretti left later, bringing further demise/depletion to our series.

How ironic that Penske and Ganassi left right after Honda/Toyota partnership ended with CART. Oh well. (Hypothetically) Had those top teams stayed, perhaps we would be having the bargaining power to win the OWR battle. In addition, Penske and Ganassi have NASCAR teams, so their departure years ago was just a little waiting game.

[Chaparral66]

I'm not sure any real tide turned, this was a gradual process of Champ Car getting weaker and weaker. But for the sake of argument, I would the tide turned when a series of bad decisions occured, one right after another. The TV deal on Spike, the loss of Ford as sponsor for no real reason, and the always late schedule release with dates that weren't even confirmed. Next to that, the IRL was a model of stability.

[Dalon]

It only tilted the IRLs way when Gerald Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven put away their checkbooks, but Tony George kept writing. Champcars wealthy backers got tired of the game, the IRLs didn't. Case closed.

And from what I can see, Tony is going to have to keep writing checks for quite a while if he wants the series to stay solvent.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

It's how Ronald Reagan won the Cold War against Gorbachev. He outspent an opponent that couldn't keep up.

[PA Rick]

When CART went public the principals were able to cash in and follow the sponsor money to the INDY 500.

Or maybe he tide turned when some idiot named the series "CART". How many times did you have to explain why you were traveling so far to a Go Kart race? They continued to use the term Indycar even though the name went over to the IRL after a few years.

Speaking of stupid naming decisions, did anyone see the Sprint Car race at Daytona?

[ZzZzZz]

It only tilted the IRLs way when Gerald Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven put away their checkbooks, but Tony George kept writing. Champcars wealthy backers got tired of the game, the IRLs didn't. Case closed.

And from what I can see, Tony is going to have to keep writing checks for quite a while if he wants the series to stay solvent.

^^^What he said.

The Amigos must have seriously underestimately the investment necessary to turn things around. (They wouldn't have gotten in if they didn't think they could...) When they stopped the subsidies, the foundation cracked.

[Jonesi]

Yes fall '06. If they had followed up with the new Panos with a matching funds sponsor program they would have gotten their +20 cars and there would have been no doubt that the season would go. As it was it looks like TG had to sell his part of Chicago track to fund '07.

[SoCalPVguy]

Day 1.

Without the Indy 500, CC never really had a chance. CC had a chance to bury IRL in the first 2 years but couldn't capitalize, should have kept a 500-mile marqee event on memerial day to compete, who know after 13 years that might be the new grand-daddy. Ticking off manufactuerers and allowing them to leave for the IRL was the biggest tipping point, first Toy/Honda leave with Bobby Ray Hall and Fernandez, big tipping point, then Penske/Andretti-Green leaves, long-term the game was over.

[Dalon]

It's how Ronald Reagan won the Cold War against Gorbachev. He outspent an opponent that couldn't keep up.

Close, but not quite.

The Soviets had no choice in the mater because they simply didn't have the resources to keep up.

But Gerald Forsythe is a billionaire and Kalkhoven is worth a mint. The pair have and had the resources. If they'd wanted, they could have kept writing checks for decades. They simply decided not to.

And unlike the end of the cold war, when the US won we were able to drastically cut back on spending. But in this case, Tony George will have to keep writing checks for many years in order to keep his series solvent.

With all the teams coming over, I suspect he'll be giving out more money this year than in the previous 2 years combined.

Sure, in time the series may have a better chance of becoming solvent and standing on its own legs. But with the current economy, it's not going to be anytime in the next year or two. If the economy is still bad next year, Tony may have to write even more checks in order to keep the teams solvent.

[bblocker68]

Honestly, when Juan Pablo won the Indy 500.

[nigelred5]

However TG has that little goldmine at 16th and Georgetown that commands a paid TV contract and that other race in August that pays the way. KK and GF were pullin it out of their pockets.

[Dalon]

However TG has that little goldmine at 16th and Georgetown that commands a paid TV contract and that other race in August that pays the way. KK and GF were pullin it out of their pockets.
I don't really see that much of a difference. Forsythe owns a profitable separate profitable business too.

While it could be said that their businesses were supporting their series, it could also be said that they were both paying the money out of their pockets. After all, the profit from their profitable businesses would have ended up in their pockets had it not been spent supporting their racing series.

So it's not a quesiton of one taking the money out of their pocket and the other not. Neither is it a question of resources, it's just a question of writing checks.

[nigelred5]

I don't really see that much of a difference. Forsythe owns a profitable separate profitable business too.

While it could be said that their businesses were supporting their series, it could also be said that they were both paying the money out of their pockets. After all, the profit from their profitable businesses would have ended up in their pockets had it not been spent supporting their racing series.

So it's not a quesiton of one taking the money out of their pocket and the other not. Neither is it a question of resources, it's just a question of writing checks.

Semantics, however Indek has nothing at all to do with racing and there is no direct benefit to the company of supporting or investing in a racing series other than advertising. IMS IS racing and it obviously DIRECTLY supports the IRL, and has other unrelated events that help with that support. TG doens't get or even ask for government subsidies, and i don't believe he's floating along running the IRL and IMS on a line of credit. Supporting the IRL is merely re-investment in the business to sustain the track. GF pulling every bit of profit he could out of Indeck without re-investing in that company could have potentially ruined both businesses. Champcar never had the luxury of a sustainable directly related income that TG does, no matter how much money GF is worth.

[nigelred5]

Close, but not quite.

The Soviets had no choice in the mater because they simply didn't have the resources to keep up.

But Gerald Forsythe is a billionaire and Kalkhoven is worth a mint. The pair have and had the resources. If they'd wanted, they could have kept writing checks for decades. They simply decided not to.

And unlike the end of the cold war, when the US won we were able to drastically cut back on spending. But in this case, Tony George will have to keep writing checks for many years in order to keep his series solvent.

With all the teams coming over, I suspect he'll be giving out more money this year than in the previous 2 years combined.

Sure, in time the series may have a better chance of becoming solvent and standing on its own legs. But with the current economy, it's not going to be anytime in the next year or two. If the economy is still bad next year, Tony may have to write even more checks in order to keep the teams solvent.

Billionaires don't become billionaires by writing checks, they do so by cashing them. They usually remember how they got rich, and they also know how to stay that way. TG could keep writing checks for years just from the Brickyard 400 . ;)

[Dalon]

Semantics, however Indek has nothing at all to do with racing and there is no direct benefit to the company of supporting or investing in a racing series other than advertising. IMS IS racing and it obviously DIRECTLY supports the IRL, and has other unrelated events that help with that support. TG doens't get or even ask for government subsidies, and i don't believe he's floating along running the IRL and IMS on a line of credit. Supporting the IRL is merely re-investment in the business to sustain the track. GF pulling every bit of profit he could out of Indeck without re-investing in that company could have potentially ruined both businesses. Champcar never had the luxury of a sustainable directly related income that TG does, no matter how much money GF is worth.

I don't think your argument plays out.

You suggest Gerald Forsythe put money into his racing series that should have been re-invested into his separate, profitable business.

Fair enough. But by that measure, Tony George is doing exactly the same thing. He's taking money the speedway earns from his nascar race and NOT re-investing it into the speedway. He's dumping it into the black hole of his indycar series.

How exactly does that help his core business? I don't see that it does. In fact, I think he has lost sight of profits entirely.

If the Speedway and the IRL were owned by separate entities, the speedway wouldn't worry about propping up the Indycar series. They'd be trying to maximize profits. And the most obvious way to do that would be to add another nascar race.

In fact, if the owner of the speedway were running it like a public, for-profit company, unaffiliated with the IRL, he'd probably be forced to consider changing the Indy 500 to a nascar race.

What? That's Sacrilege! Yes, it is. Don't complain, you're the one who brought up opportunity costs and business re-investment. ;)

While it would be sacrilege to turn the 500 into a nascar race, it would also bring the speedway a truly huge amount of revenue. Revenue that a separately public company would find hard to turn down.

If IMS were run as a separate business, there is little doubt that the business would be run a hell of a lot differently than it is today. Even if that business wanted to continue running an open wheel 500, they'd have little reason to prop up the IRL. They could sell the race to A1GP, F1, GP2, whatever.

There's almost no difference in what Gerald Forsythe and Tony George have been doing. Jerry just got tired of writing checks.

[tbyars]

When did the tide turn. Seriously, I believe the tide turned a lap before the green flag dropped at the US 500. Follow me on this.

That single day had the potential of ending the split right there. Most race fans I knew - including me - pretty much thought the competing races were going to show Tony George's series up for what it was. CART had set their path; they had declined the option of racing under TG's rules, and, as it turned out, the results of the day couldn't have been worse for them.

"The Stars and the Cars" started the day with a fiasco; the 1996 Indy 500 for anyone who noticed was won by a terribly popular grass-roots driver who had overcome personal pain to be an Indy 500 winner.

All of a sudden, an awful lot of us who had done a lot of tacky namecalling - justifyably, we thought - felt pretty foolish.

Rather than dominating the 1996 Indy 500, which the CART teams would have done, regardless of whether they had 20 cars in the field or the limited 8 allowed by 25/8, they made TG's series legitimate that day.

They could have made it a laughing stock.

[BenRoethig]

That is TILT the IRL's Way

When they figured out that the fans were losing interest in the actual series (CART) because it didn't have the Indy500


I'm gonna say when Toyota and Honda left. They took Penske, Ganassi, Rahal and Andretti with them. They said they went where their sponsors wanted them to go. What a crock that was. Never could understand how those traitors could say such rubbish with such a straight face.

Because they're not in it some hateful crusade and are capable of seeing the big picture. To yourself having next to zero fans about a .5 average TV rating is acceptable as long as its road racing.

[Chris R]

When did the tide turn. Seriously, I believe the tide turned a lap before the green flag dropped at the US 500. Follow me on this.

That single day had the potential of ending the split right there. Most race fans I knew - including me - pretty much thought the competing races were going to show Tony George's series up for what it was. CART had set their path; they had declined the option of racing under TG's rules, and, as it turned out, the results of the day couldn't have been worse for them.

"The Stars and the Cars" started the day with a fiasco; the 1996 Indy 500 for anyone who noticed was won by a terribly popular grass-roots driver who had overcome personal pain to be an Indy 500 winner.

All of a sudden, an awful lot of us who had done a lot of tacky namecalling - justifyably, we thought - felt pretty foolish.

Rather than dominating the 1996 Indy 500, which the CART teams would have done, regardless of whether they had 20 cars in the field or the limited 8 allowed by 25/8, they made TG's series legitimate that day.

They could have made it a laughing stock.

I think you might be right about this - the first time they went head to head - the IRL won hands down and there is no way it should have gone down that way.....

Overall, I don't think there was any one event that turned the tide - it was a very gradual thing and it has a much to do with the general economic situation as anything else - the guys funding both series are taking petty significant losses in the marketplace right now and the outlook for the next 12-18 months is not rosey. My guess is that the Amigos lost more money on investments in the last 3 months that they had planned to spend on CCWS in the next 2 years....

[Shirk]

Oh please, I can't believe that so many posters really think that the Champ Car Series was doomed from Day 1 of the split because they no longer had the Indy 500. As far as I remember, CART had seven quite competitive and entertaining seasons with plenty of well-sponsored teams from 1996 to 2002, sans 500.

Their downfall surely wasn't the on-track product, but rather mismanagement in the backoffice and maybe at the track itself that ultimately led to Honda and Toyota defecting to the IRL in 2003, taking all top teams other than Penske (already left in 2002, allegedly to please Marlboro) and Newman-Haas (thanks to Paul Newman recognising Tony George as the war monger and war profiteer he is), as Ganassi & co were eager to desert a ship that was now surely bound to sink and cashing in by unloading their MPH stock for a nice profit at the same time.

What did CART do to earn the mistrust of the manufacturers?

Those who care to will surely remember the troubles with certain pop-off valve fairings, the unexplained loss of the Rio race despite having a huge Brazilian connection, the Texas Motor Speedway fiasco, the unpopular European leg immediately after 9/11, losing ABC/ESPN and paying big bucks for CBS/Speed coverage, quarrels over sanctioning fees, internal rowing by the stockholders, finally the change over to the IRL engine and back again to the turbos in the course of just a few days, and how Joe "Socks" Heitzler and later Chris "Mess-iah" Pook as well (mis)managed all these affairs not only during their unfolding, but also afterwards, handling them like infantiles.

All these (very public) behind-the scenes issues during the tumultuous 01/02 seasons (and those I might have forgotten) probably proved to manufacturers (and sponsors alike) that CART management had their heads firmly up their own asses.

From there on, it was straight down, despite the "under new management" sign at the entrance. The series was certainly able to handle the loss of the Indy 500, but not losing manufacturers and other sponsors on top of that.

[Chris R]

I think the product is really a big part of what finally brought CCWS down - after the manufacturer left, it became a spec series. The IRL has the same problem. By their very nature, spec series tend to be sort of boring. They may present good racing - but there is nothing else to sink your teeth into as a fan.... The IRL just has/had spec racing with some manufacturer support behind it - so it outlasted CCWS....

Bottom line is that the IRL still contains the same fatal flaw that did in CCWS- boring spec cars. Now that the series is unified and there is an opportunity to concentrate financial resources on one series this paradigm needs to change.....

[FerrrariF1]

Easy one....the hiring of Steve Johnson and Garrett Mudd by KK and GF plus they actually listened to Paul Gentilozzi who ran the Trans-Am series into the ground. KK and GF giving the rein to those three sealed our faith. If KK and GF fired the two of them as soon as the season ended and told Paulie G. to go pound sand. Gave Tony Cottman full control as well as be able to hire a team we would not be where we are.

I will not follow the IRL even with Champcar being absorbed into it. I can't stand Tony George and will not spend my money knowing that a penny will go to him. I will end my 27 straight year run of going to the LBGP as well as many of my favorite tracks are now DOA...Cleveland, Road America and Laguna Seca. Well at least I have F1/GP2/ALMS/Speed Challenge/DTM/Aussie SUpercar series and hopefully the Atlantics series will be bought by ALMS ad that great series doing go the way of Champcar.

Sad day for AOWR. ANyone who thinks that is now good just wait and see what the new few years bring. I am betting that by the year 2009 or 2010 at the latest the car count will be back down to the same 17-19 cars except for Indy which is all George cares about.

[F1boat]

After Penske and TGR went to Indy Car. To me it really seemed that Indy has become the stronger series with these teams.

[SoTex]

When they figured out that the fans were losing interest in the actual series (CART) because it didn't have the Indy500

Oh Really. The same Indy 500 that has lost much of its luster and is no longer the premier event it once was. I doubt it. CART had good ratings and support for some time after the split.


Because they're not in it some hateful crusade and are capable of seeing the big picture. To yourself having next to zero fans about a .5 average TV rating is acceptable as long as its road racing.

Maybe you could take a look at slipping ratings the I500 has posted since the split. Not to mention the subpar ratings the IRL posts week in and week out.

[F1boat]

Oh Really. The same Indy 500 that has lost much of its luster and is no longer the premier event it once was. I doubt it. CART had good ratings and support for some time after the split.



Maybe you could take a look at slipping ratings the I500 has posted since the split. Not to mention the subpar ratings the IRL posts week in and week out.

Fact is that IRL survived.
Because of Indy.

[SoTex]

Fact is that IRL survived.
Because of Indy.

Yes I agree with that. But dont make it sound like the I500 was not tarnished in the process. It is no longer the event it once was. And everything I stated about the I500 and the IRL is correct!
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/30/news_pf/Sports/Indy_500_has_lost_som.shtml

[Mark in Oshawa]

The day Penske and the boys went over from CART. Actually, the minute Penske and Ganassi ran the 500 while staying in CART the die was cast. The crown was collecting dust and the public at Indy were seeing a shoddy product. Then Roger and Chip came back...and oxygen was given to a dwindling flame. If the 500 kept putting up the Buddy Laziers and the like as champions, I suspect most of the crowd would have stayed home more often. Lets face the reality, for the first 5 years it was the only race the IRL had that mattered and it was struggling. Then Roger and Chip came back for the 500 and later for good.

That said, do I blame Roger and Chip? No, their sponsors needed the exposure and they pretty much laid down the law with Roger and Chip. Also, they missed the old place and they didn't see CART replacing that role in the sport that Indy provided. CART's greatest error was not finding a way with the owners to make a new crown jewel, a new "Super event" that could replace Indy. It was the only chance CART had, and the US 500 wasn't it. In short, the only way to kill the IRL quick was to find a way to take away the drama and interest from its only real true event and CART instead enabled it in time. I don't blame Roger and the other's for defecting either. They are business men and they did what smart business men do, they made a decision based on what was best for their business. Time proved them right didn't it? It isn't THEIR fault CART and CCWS screwed up......

[Cart750hp]

The day Penske and the boys went over from CART. Actually, the minute Penske and Ganassi ran the 500 while staying in CART the die was cast. The crown was collecting dust and the public at Indy were seeing a shoddy product. Then Roger and Chip came back...and oxygen was given to a dwindling flame. If the 500 kept putting up the Buddy Laziers and the like as champions, I suspect most of the crowd would have stayed home more often. Lets face the reality, for the first 5 years it was the only race the IRL had that mattered and it was struggling. Then Roger and Chip came back for the 500 and later for good.

That said, do I blame Roger and Chip? No, their sponsors needed the exposure and they pretty much laid down the law with Roger and Chip. Also, they missed the old place and they didn't see CART replacing that role in the sport that Indy provided. CART's greatest error was not finding a way with the owners to make a new crown jewel, a new "Super event" that could replace Indy. It was the only chance CART had, and the US 500 wasn't it. In short, the only way to kill the IRL quick was to find a way to take away the drama and interest from its only real true event and CART instead enabled it in time. I don't blame Roger and the other's for defecting either. They are business men and they did what smart business men do, they made a decision based on what was best for their business. Time proved them right didn't it? It isn't THEIR fault CART and CCWS screwed up......


Good thing you're back, Mark.

[Hiryu]

Point #1 is when tobacco sponsorship went away.

Point #2 is when TG was able to keep one manufacturer (Honda) to the bitter end.

Not to mention that we have no idea how healthy Forsythe & Kalkhoven are; maybe they saw the personal handwriting on the wall and started making other plans.