Is this really such a shame ?

[jensen541]

Sinces years, fans wanted the OW American Series to find a common ground. Since years they were hopping that a solution would be found. And now that a solution could come up, everybody is like devastated.

In everything in life, there is a price to pay. Nothing is easy and does not matter how you want to do things, there will be winners and losers. In this case, Champ Car may look as a loser because it sounds like they are surrending to IRL. But is it really the truth ? Who is the real winner ? the one who accepts that sometimes you have to play a low profile to get things done or the one who is so much proud of his power and does not compromize ? Maybe the winner is not the one you would think of.

History will tell, but one thing is sure, at least, someone did a move to try to reunify these Series. He may lose a lot out of it but he did it. It is a honorable way to surrender and if nobody will have taken this step, everyone on these forums would still be asking when a merger is coming up rather than spending time to speculate about the good and bad parts of it.

At least, the person who took the risk gave you an answer. At least he did try. He also accepted the fact that a merger will be more like a take over. But he did it. In 10 years down the road, people will have forgotten who did what and who lost money. They will just be proud of seing a unified US open wheel Series. Is this not just the simple target of all of this mess ?

So maybe, rather than showing lots of criticism which is always easy as we are not in charge, why not considering that at least theses people moved to try to achieve something ? They still may fail, but if they do it, I doubt there will be so many critics 6 months from now.

Business is tough, requires compromises and Car Racing is a business, even if it is a show as well. It still has to follow economical rules and has to be profitable. If these guys dont get this merger done, we shall all be watching only NASCAR pretty soon. We may still have a choice between Truck Series, National or Sprint, great ! You just take the same cards and mix them differently. Is this what OW fans want ?

[Cart750hp]

Sinces years, fans wanted the OW American Series to find a common ground. Since years they were hopping that a solution would be found. And now that a solution could come up, everybody is like devastated.

In everything in life, there is a price to pay. Nothing is easy and does not matter how you want to do things, there will be winners and losers. In this case, Champ Car may look as a loser because it sounds like they are surrending to IRL. But is it really the truth ? Who is the real winner ? the one who accepts that sometimes you have to play a low profile to get things done or the one who is so much proud of his power and does not compromize ? Maybe the winner is not the one you would think of.

History will tell, but one thing is sure, at least, someone did a move to try to reunify these Series. He may lose a lot out of it but he did it. It is a honorable way to surrender and if nobody will have taken this step, everyone on these forums would still be asking when a merger is coming up rather than spending time to speculate about the good and bad parts of it.

At least, the person who took the risk gave you an answer. At least he did try. He also accepted the fact that a merger will be more like a take over. But he did it. In 10 years down the road, people will have forgotten who did what and who lost money. They will just be proud of seing a unified US open wheel Series. Is this not just the simple target of all of this mess ?

So maybe, rather than showing lots of criticism which is always easy as we are not in charge, why not considering that at least theses people moved to try to achieve something ? They still may fail, but if they do it, I doubt there will be so many critics 6 months from now.

Business is tough, requires compromises and Car Racing is a business, even if it is a show as well. It still has to follow economical rules and has to be profitable. If these guys dont get this merger done, we shall all be watching only NASCAR pretty soon. We may still have a choice between Truck Series, National or Sprint, great ! You just take the same cards and mix them differently. Is this what OW fans want ?

All I can say is time will tell.

[FormerFF]

I wouldn't say that everyone is devastated. A few are devastated, and vocal about it, and a few are ecstatic, and less vocal about it. I'd guess most are relieved, and just don't have that much to say.

[mlittle]

Looking at the end of the split, I suspect there's going to be a lot of business and economics professors who will use the past four years to illustrate how not to run a major racing series, although they could also use the past twelve plus years to also illustrate just how this sport got to where it is at present. :eek: :eek: :eek:

On the other hand......once there is a merged series, hopefully it can begin to repair the wounds the split's caused over the years and begin to make inroads against the 800-lb. gorilla, a/k/a NASCAR.

[Miatanut]

I wouldn't say that everyone is devastated. A few are devastated, and vocal about it, and a few are ecstatic, and less vocal about it. I'd guess most are relieved, and just don't have that much to say.

I would agree!

[Albert D. Kallal]

Unless the IRL fixes their fundamental problems as a racing league, the continued downward spiral will not be halted by this merger.

The only result of this merger will be that some of the venues in champ car will be lost, and others will continue to be weakened.

A lot of people are under the false impression that now that some unification may occur, we instantly return to the glory days of past. The problem here is that at least in terms of champ car we’ve always kept our roots in that we said that champ car was about the drivers and the racing.

Many people often point out that in the heyday of champ car it was the fact that you had Super speedway’s, ovals, street courses, and then road courses is that what made champ car great. This is not really true. Sure the diversity was nice to have, but at the end of the day to what really made the difference was the fact that we had these cars with 900 plus horsepower and that the drivers were of extremely high quality.

The quality and the challenging of driving these cars was equal to that of F1

Even today and looking out last year when champ car driver Neel Jani did a stint in a1gp, he managed to get the pole and win the race.

The fact of the matter is that we had drivers like Doornbos, Wilson, Jani, and gifted people like Will power and Graham Rahal in our line up. There is a number of other talented and gifted drivers like Sebastion, and Servia in the list too.

My point here is that even today with the DP 01, we had extremely challenging and difficult cars to drive, and with p2p they were at the 800 horsepower mark. It was pretty impressive to see Sebastian break the Laguna Seca track record. Not only did Sebastian beat the Toytoa f1 time, but he also broke the record time held by a 900 plus horsepower Honda CART (Penske) from 1999, or 2001. (Even if you don't respect beating the F1 time, it still is impressive to beat the 900 plus horsepower CART car).

The one thing champ car always had going for it was respect. Stoddard and team Minardi always said that if you looked around at racing, champ car was ALWAYS considered the next level right below F1.

I’m making the long above impassioned post because I wanted to point out that it is significant in terms of respect that a racing series gains respect by the very difficulty and challenges and talent it takes to drive the cars.

If there’s one thing that champ car stayed true to its real roots was that even in the very recent years it took a VERY high level of talent to drive the cars on the venues that champ car visited.

With the IRL having the 650 horsepower cars, and on ovals with so much down force dialed into the cars, most people from my local sports car club could likely drive those cars. Lets not forget the Milka fiasco from last year. Furthermore I believe Katherine legge is a far better driver then is Dankia. Look how much Kat was challenged in champ car, and it was not easy for her.

So the problem with the IRL is not the indy 500, or they have greater diversity with ovals, the fundamental root problem is that the IRL will not create the drivers of tomorrow that can go on to challenge drivers in F1.

People who love and have a passion for racing do NOT respect the IRL as a source of those great drivers of tomorrow. We don’t reject the IRL because of Tony George, we don’t respect the IRL because it’s not the high level of racing that we enjoyed over the years.

If there’s one thing I have to give the credit to KK and co is these guys gave champ car a few extra years, and they DID understand it was about the racing and the drivers. They algamated the Atlantics because they knew was important to create drivers of tomorrow. They brought in a new car because they knew we needed something that was modern and up to date. They brought in standing starts because it was another challenging aspect that most forms of high level racing had.

Formula one even adopted our two tire compound system (hard, and soft tires). At the end of the day you have to admit that in terms of the actual fundamental basics of what makes racing great, the current owners of champ car made some really fantastic moves.

Going to the Indy 500 does not gain your respect, driving an incredibly powerful car that challenge the best drivers in the world is what gains you that respect.

The problem here is that the IRL is partly in bed with people like Walt Disney and other organizations that in their view they want this to be some form of entertainment,

Unfortunately if the IRL adopts something like the DP 01, then stars like Danika will be out of a job, and not be competitive anymore.

It really is a double edge sword here, in that the IRL can not make the racing more difficult and challenging (loose Dankia), but if they don’t make the racing more challenging then they risk losing the respect of us fans. MORE important is the respect from drivers like Doornbos, and people like Stoddard and team Minardi usa that saw champ car as a challenge.

The sad part of this whole thing means that unless the IRL changes the car and its formula, people like Graham Rahal will never make it to formula one and be able to fulfill their future dreams.

My greatest fear is that the IRL does not really care about this fundamental aspect of making great drivers and great racing, but only care about making a big spectacle and having a bunch of people go round and round in cars that are too easy to drive.

If TG does not address the The fundamental shortcomings of the IRL, and returned to some very high performance cars that are very challenging and difficult to drive, then the IRL will continue to be the lame series that it is. The merger addresses none of these problems, and I see nothing in TG vision that wants to change any of this. Something would have happened in the last ten+ years on the IRL side if they had such a vision. There is ZERO reason to believe that the IRL will change this vision (and loose Dankia).

We see nothing that hints of a new future.

The three amigos might’ve dropped the ball and a few places, but at the end of the day the real important parts of racing were addressed in a very brilliant way by these people, and for the most part their direction and where they wanted to go in the future was the right direction for racing. The direction that they pointed champ car in was the right direction to give drivers and the series the high level of respect that champ car had, and richly deserved.

The IRL has a lot of work ahead of itself to try and change its whole vision of the future it's had in the past 13 years in one fell swoop. I don't believe that the IRL has any ability to address the fundamental flaws that this series has had, and has.

This merger does actually zero to solve the download spiral that the IRL is in right now.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[champcarray]

I think it's a shame for many of the reasons Albert just noted. Unfortunately, we've reached the point where the tail not only wags the dog, it is making it sit up and beg. I'm not enthralled with the amigos, but am downright disappointed with the IRL and the "vision" of the last man standing.

[Ruben Barrios]

^^^ Had the P2P been adopted by the IRL... Albert and a lot more CCWS die hards would have been all over that issue calling the IRL a joke, a video game series...etc...

"The direction that they pointed champ car in was the right direction to give drivers and the series the high level of respect that champ car had, and richly deserved."

That is utter BS... what respect? CCWS never, ever respected the drivers...

[keysersoze]

Albert Albert Albert

The say the driver talent is superior in CCWS. That is a very dubious statement.

You say the only result is that venues will be lost and some will be weakened? Before I yack all over that comment would you care to elaborate?

Champcar kept its roots, you say? Then how come the dissipation of ovals, fewer American drivers, and the expansion into the foreign market? That in their roots?

You then mention the diversity of the tracks had nothing to do with Champcar's heritage, and that what made the series great was 900 hp cars and high quality drivers. Well, during the split years, the quality of drivers in BOTH series has been as good, if not better, than it has ever been. You imply that 900 bhp is some magic number. Rubbish. It's the quality of the racing. The average fan can't tell (and wouldn't care) that a 900 car is in any way different than a 650 hp car. What they want is recognizable drivers and close racing. See the NASCAR model and, if you thumb your nose at that, think back to last season's F1 championship. That season was about drivers who the fans were passionate about, and two very comparable teams.

The drivers you mentioned are talented, but to suggest that they are superior to, or more accomplished than, current IRL drivers is highly suspect. Bourdais is currently getting shown the way (in testing) by his 20 year-old teammate, who has less than one year of F1 experience.

You try to make a case against the IRL cars, but if they are so inferior, then please explain why the CCWS teams claim they will uncompetitive, especially in light of your inane comment that drivers from your sports car club can drive them--supposedly.

The IRL is not in business to create drivers who will challenge F1, as you so naively claim. They are in business for themselves . . . they need to KEEP drivers.

You discredit yourself by saying that going to the Indy 500 gets no one respect. If you knew anything about the track, you'd realize that it is four high speed turns with characteristics of a road course. It's the most famous race in the world.

You are correct, CCCWS made some interesting technical decisions that has spiced up the racing. Some may argue it has made the racing artificial. P2P?That implies one needs an advantage just to make a pass. The white line rule. I happen to like it, but it's clearly artificial. Required stints on certain compound tires is yet another artificial way to allow passing--but that DOESN'T give an accurate measure of the talent.

And what has all these measures done for the series? Nothing. The series can't get television enticed enough to provide a respectable broadcast package.

[nigelred5]

Champcar's real roots are driving around a 2.5 mile track formerly paved with bricks. End of story.

[Albert D. Kallal]

^^^ Had the P2P been adopted by the IRL... Albert and a lot more CCWS die hards would have been all over that issue calling the IRL a joke, a video game series...etc...


It is a question of how much gimmick stuff you introduce here. If you have crappy 200 hp cars with p2p, then yes..it is a joke. If you put grooved tires in the IRL, then it becomes a joke, but it not the same for f1?

With the realities of a spec series, adding some things to allow passing is not so bad. Formula Audi in Europe also has this feature. So, if your league is struggling for credibility and has crappy cars that are not a challenge to drive, then yes it becomes a joke.

p2p on a 800hp car is not that bad. A bit of a gimmick? Sure, but you can handle that feature when talking about 800hp cars. It did add an legitimate and interesting aspect to the races. If the IRL cars where 800hp turbocharged cars like CCWS, then we would NOT be laughing and making jokes about p2p being a gimmick. It is really that simple of an observation
here.



"The direction that they pointed champ car in was the right direction to give drivers and the series the high level of respect that champ car had, and richly deserved."

That is utter BS... what respect? CCWS never, ever respected the drivers...


Read again what I said. I said the series garnered respect by the drivers because of the level of racing it offered. If your telling me that due to financial problems and other issues that CCWs did a poor job keeping care of some of its drivers, then yes, I 100% agree with you.

For the most part MOST drivers will tell you the same thing: champ car was really the next step below f1, and driving in that series was a challenge to be respected.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[bblocker68]

Champcar's real roots are driving around a 2.5 mile track formerly paved with bricks. End of story.

And dirt tracks across the heartland. I dont see any of those on the schedule either.

In here, I think we see things with a little different perspective than say, the CCF, which I also visit and post at. Man, that place is imploding in front of our eyes. People are commited lock, stock and barrel and I just cant reason with their logic.

Coming together is the ONLY way open wheel racing is going to survive and I finally came to grips with that over the summer. Staying loyal to CC is great, but I started having real doubts after all of the crap that went down this year. I also remember all that went wrong with Heitzler and Pook. It's been one disaster after the other. The Amigo's gave us some breathing room and hope for a bit, but that too turned for the worse.

I keep hearing over and over that F1's success was attributed to giving Bernie the power to make decisions and the teams abide with what he says. That has always been the problem with CART/CC. The owners have way too much pull, especially they are the governing body.

We now have a chance to follow in the footsteps of a series that is a huge success.

Let's give it a chance and see what happens.

[Albert D. Kallal]

Albert Albert Albert
You say the only result is that venues will be lost and some will be weakened? Before I yack all over that comment would you care to elaborate?


Because the IRL has difficulty drawing crowds to their events. What is going change here? The *product* they offer will NOT be changed. If they not changed their product they are offering, and they have races with embarrassing attendance, what will change? (and, yes. CCWS also has events that struggled for attendance). The point being is that the IRL has changed nothing here, and will continue to struggle unless they change their product they offer. Nothing’s really changed here, why will they magically started seeing increasing numbers of viewers?



Champcar kept its roots, you say? Then how come the dissipation of ovals, fewer American drivers, and the expansion into the foreign market? That in their roots?


I said that ONE of the major things that champ kept was it was about the drivers and the cars. If your making the point that “many” of it roots like ovals and fewer American drivers shows that many issues and roots were lost. Yes, then 100% agree with you. That was not my point, and I make no deny of your point.

I simply said that as a general rule the idea of having good cars, and making decisions that were important to the driving side of things will be something that I will miss in the IRL. Introducing standing starts, and things like purchasing atlantics were all about the driving. You’re going to have to explain to me how they’re going to increase the challenges of driving in the IRL, and keep people like Danika?

You think Minardi EVER considered the IRL? Stoddard always said that he choose champ car because of how challenging the driving was. He pretty much stated that he believed the champ car was the next best thing to the f1 in terms of the *level* of racing.

(by the way, Minardi will likely NOT go to the IRL in this merger, and Stoddard has stated he has little interest in oval racing in the past).

The IRL can’t adopt cars like the dp01 because drivers like Dankia will not cut the mustard anymore, so, they don’t want better and more challenging cars! (got my point???).



You then mention the diversity of the tracks had nothing to do with Champcar's heritage


I did not say that you fool! (please stop putting words in my mouth). I said:



Many people often point out that in the heyday of champ car it was the fact that you had Super speedway’s, ovals, street courses, and then road courses is that what made champ car great. This is not really true. Sure the diversity was nice to have


Where did I say the word “nothing”? Man, what gives with people like you? Can’t you read here? I said the diversity was nice to have, sure, it meant something! However, that diversity was not the ONLY reason for the success of CART. It was nice to have, it added something, but it was NOT the reason for the success. ( the fact the matter is the IRL also had this diversity for a number of years and they’re still in a downward spiral).



You imply that 900 bhp is some magic number.


No, I do not imply this a magic number. It would be a stunning admission on your part if you’re going to stand here and tell me that star mazda drivers, or formula Atlantic drivers garner the same respect as camp car drivers? They don’t. I was only making the point that it is significant issue as to how difficult and challenging the cars are to drive. We’re talking about at what level of motor sports are we evaluation here.

I don’t think there’s a person on the planet earth that would disagree that f1 is not the pinnacle of open wheel racing now. You make that pinnacle by having a lot of things right in the mix, but you at least have to have vehicles that are extremely challenging to drive.



Rubbish. It's the quality of the racing. The average fan can't tell (and wouldn't care) that a 900 car is in any way different than a 650 hp car


But the drivers care!!! You think you’re going to see a bunch of formula one drivers now start racing in the local go kart league in your city? The quality of racing in those go karts might be better than formula one, but go karts don’t get the same respect as f1 because it’s not the same level of motor sports at all.



Bourdais is currently getting shown the way (in testing) by his 20 year-old teammate, who has less than one year of F1 experience.


Yes, and that one year of f1 experience is a LOT more then Sebass has in that car. However, I just looked at the last day of testing in Jarez, and the times are:



Timo Glock Toyota 1m19.779 96
Lewis Hamilton Vodafone McLaren
Mercedes 1m20.099 73
Fernando Alonso Renault 1m20.363 49
Sebastien Bourdais Toro Rosso 1m20.407 61
Felipe Massa Ferrari 1m20.500 85
Heikki Kovalainen Vodafone McLaren
Mercedes 1m20.535 79
Kamui Kobayashi Toyota 1m20.577 53
Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1m20.646 88
Kazuki Nakajima Williams 1m20.758 57
Adrian Sutil Force India 1m21.705 71
Mark Webber Red Bull Racing1m22.275 53
David Coulthard Red Bull Racing1m22.581 54
Nico Hulkenberg Williams 1m24.023 65
Sebastian Vettel Toro Rosso 1m24.873 50



The above sure does not show Sebas getting shown the way. And, the above times are what, only about the 4th time Sebas been in the car? Man, give me a break, the above results of the last day in Jarez are rather stunning in terms of his performance. New team, new car, new everything, and I think he did damn good in that last test ( and it took him a few times in the car to really start going, but the above is amzaing!!)




You try to make a case against the IRL cars, but if they are so inferior, then please explain why the CCWS teams claim they will uncompetitive, especially in light of your inane comment that drivers from your sports car club can drive them--supposedly.


Do you really seriously lack that much knowledge and understanding of racing? Do I really have to explain the above to you? It is because the engineers and teams don’t have set up information and previous experience using those cars. For a team to learn the subtle differences and little tricks that make a car perform well can take several years ( or at least the full season of racing). We don’t even know some of the competitors had those cars in wind tunnels. It is an absolutely huge learning curve for the teams to get the most out of those cars, despite them being a lower level of performance and challenge than driving champ cars. It is likely the team engineers would have the same problem if they were moving down to star mazda and competing against teams that a been racing for year.

I really am at a sad loss are as to why I have to explain the above obvious conclusion to you.



The IRL is not in business to create drivers who will challenge F1, as you so naively claim. They are in business for themselves . . . they need to KEEP drivers.


The above is rather obvious to me. The problem is do you think that formula one is looking to the IRL grab drivers? You don’t think it speaks volumes about a league that can graduate drivers that move on to formula one? It would be pretty nice if the IRL was at least viewed as a possible stepping stone into formula one. I’ve never met anyone who believes that is the case for the IRL. That is definitely the view of champ car.

Once again my whole point about my post was who is that there’s an important aspect of racing that I believe is missing in the IRL, and that is making a very challenging racing series that only the best from the previoues lower ranks can make it. (not some girl with big boobs and a sponsor from south america). It is the difference between AAA baseball, and the national baseball league.



And what has all these measures done for the series? Nothing. The series can't get television enticed enough to provide a respectable broadcast package.

I totally agree with you on this issue. However you still must have a venue that creates the proper challenges for those drivers. The IRL has NOT shown the same vision when it comes to making a venue that challenges the drivers.

Golly, all drivers can be challenged in a go kart, but the difference between me and a f1 driver in the 2hp go cart is NOT going to be very much. As you move up the ladder in motor sports, the differences between the more talented people at that level of racing begins to show.

CCWS was a higher form of racing then was the IRL. Just like f1 is harder then go karts, or star mazda.

The fact that CCWS failed commercially does not change where they stood in the ladder of open wheel motor sports.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[Rex Monaco]

The merger isn't even complete and already people are complaining that they haven't changed the product. Sheeesh...

The IRL and CC are both in serious trouble and neither of them could survive on their own past 2008.

And you don't invest/waste money on engines and chassis, when the future isn't certain.

When the future is secure, via this merger, then they can examine what the future product will be.

Personally, I want them to open the engine formula back up so that turbo diesels can compete against hybrids.

Staying stuck in the past on this or that engine formula, was not CART's legacy. Normally aspirated V6's kicking the crap out of turbo V8's at Indy was!

[Albert D. Kallal]

The merger isn't even complete and already people are complaining that they haven't changed the product. Sheeesh...


I absolute agree that we give this a chance. However, even CCWS shows that you can move forward (new cars, standing starts, 800hp p2p, soft/hard tires, hans device…the list is quite long.). I am only expressing my concerns as to the IRL did not really move forward in terms of what they did with rules, cars, or anything in the same time period.

Why would the merger change how the IRL done things? There is NOTHING in this merger that suggests some type of change will occur now after 13+ years. For what reason would a magical change occur in the IRL? The IRL can’t raise the bar to create a higher level of racing because it cause difficulty for drivers like Dankia.

Look, assuming we get 14 cars IRL, and perhaps 6 from champ car, we at least get grid of about 20 cars, and that is a good start and will make a better grid we seen in years.

I can only hope that this is the start of something better then 6 cars from CCWS jumping onto another boat that is in trouble.

If there is leadership and vision of the future, then perhaps this will be the beginning of rebuilding. Perhaps and a big perhaps is that sponsors will be more friendly to a merged series, and that *could* help the re-building process here. Perhaps there will be some pressure by the CCWS teams to change things, but if Roger Penske could not change how the IRL did things…how will these teams represent a new era of change?

The change will have to come from the top. so, yes, I hope, but past history did not show much of a change from the top.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[jensen541]

Albert, I can only agree with you. What will be most probably missing is the challenge of driving real difficult cars unless the merger issues in a sort of Dallara/Cosworth combination. Even if it is first a US Series, the new merged Series has to raise the game level so to allow drivers to be competitive when they will face the international scene. Some people posting refer to background, well by doing the same, F1 will probably still be racing onto old roads around a forest.

The problem now is not the background but the future. If they do it right, there is a future. If they don't understand's some of the basics that Albert is describing, it could be just another step before another failure.

The merger was needed as there is no other choice, and agin I feel at least some of the people involved were kinf good in putting they proudness into their pocket and go ahead. But the way to manage this merger will be the key as it will decide upon of the future of US OW racing. A merger does not mean that the future is guaranteed. And one of the problem of car racing is that they tend to always use again and again those nice guys who failed before. What killed Champ Car was not the concept, but only the way it was managed.

[Albert D. Kallal]

The problem now is not the background but the future. If they do it right, there is a future.


As I said, I will give this more thought. I been in business too long to think that a organization after 13 years can just change it ways…it cannot. I don’t speak out of spite, but only of experience. It is just the way things work.

It is very possible that the sponsorship issue between the split was worse then I give it credit for. Many champ car teams said that because they were not at indy, they could not secure sponsors (but, then why does the IRL have sponsorship difficulty also?).

I suppose for example, now Firestone/Bridgestone can spend nearly double the money on promotion of the ONE league. On the other hand, they kind of loved having Firestone for Indy, and Bridgestone for champ car – they *just* stated they are not sure now what to do, and they can’t really promote Bridgestone in the IRL at this point in time. (so, they are likely not spend more $$ here).

One bright spot will be having 20 cars on the grid, and less fan confusion. I do think that fans can identify more with indy 500. Thus, this may very well be a boost for the more casual fans (but, those empty oval events of past prove otherwise).

Perhaps this is a turning point, and it will open the doors to more corporate money here, or least a less dilution of money that spent on open wheel racing. I can only hope this dilution REALLY was a problem of the split. I sure hope so!!

At the end of the day, you do have to cater to those casual fans, but on a deep level, it is the strength of the product that makes fans REALLY dedicated.

It is possible that us really dedicated fans don’t matter very much.

Hope does spring eternal here, and at the end of the day, addition of a few teams from CCWS should provide a shot in the arm. I just hope this shot in the arm is more then a quick drug dosage to keep the horse going for one more lap.

I feel sad for team Minardi, and wonderful characters like Robert Doornbos. It was a treat to watch him drive, and watch Stoddard smile when they won a race. I don’t think Minardi will make the switch, nor do they want to go oval racing.

Strange, but the person who benefits the most from the switch is Paul Tracy. This assumes that Forsthe will make the jump. Note that FCR may not go to IRL as this provides a chance for FCR to get out of Paul Tracy’s high priced contract.

Remember PT threatened to go to the IRL this year if FCR did not buck up. Well, it looks like PT will make it to the IRL, but FCR can use this to get out of the contract, and not jumping is a perfect way for FCR to save a bundle.

However, some IRL would likey pick up PT.

At least PT will have lots more cars to run into, and with power-assist steering, and less powered cars, it might actually make PT more competitive for a few extra years. (now, if they can just fix the car + weight rule which makes MORE difference in the less powered cars, PT can really be in business - if weight rule is not addressed, then PT is already toast and will not be competitive with his size and weight).

I am very happy for Paul Newman, for he is a true hero of hero’s, and I can’t think of a man in racing, or outside of racing that I respect more. Paul Newman is simply decient good man that the world needs more like him. For him to be in his 80’s, and see the reunification is no doubt a very heart warming feeling for him. It would have been sad for him to pass away and not see open wheel racing come together. I am happy for Newman.

On the other hand, I feel sorry for the HUGE investments NHL made in the off season to make them 1st in class with the dp01.

Poor Wilson and Graham are going to have to suffer as back markers while NHL tries to play catch up in a car that other teams been using for many years – Poor guys don’t stand a chance, and fans are going to roast NHL as a has been racing team. The damage to morale will be hard on Graham, and also for the team as a whole for they are a group of people that are used to being at the top of their game.

NHL will get there, but its going to take them a full season, perhaps more to catch the top teams. I feel for them to get kicked so hard, and it will be hard for them to be so down in the pack. However, great teams know that they can rise to the top, even if in the mean time they have to eat crow.

NHL will get to the top, I have zero doubt, it will just not be this year!!

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[SoTex]

Back to the original question Is this really such a shame? Yes when CART/CCWS lost a 12 year civil war, there is shame. There is shame in losing. The beginning of the 2007 season held so much promise that our series would continue. To see it dimantled this quickly is shocking.

[Ranger]

Yes, and that one year of f1 experience is a LOT more then Sebass has in that car. However, I just looked at the last day of testing in Jarez, and the times are:



Timo Glock Toyota 1m19.779 96
Lewis Hamilton Vodafone McLaren
Mercedes 1m20.099 73
Fernando Alonso Renault 1m20.363 49
Sebastien Bourdais Toro Rosso 1m20.407 61
Felipe Massa Ferrari 1m20.500 85
Heikki Kovalainen Vodafone McLaren
Mercedes 1m20.535 79
Kamui Kobayashi Toyota 1m20.577 53
Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1m20.646 88
Kazuki Nakajima Williams 1m20.758 57
Adrian Sutil Force India 1m21.705 71
Mark Webber Red Bull Racing1m22.275 53
David Coulthard Red Bull Racing1m22.581 54
Nico Hulkenberg Williams 1m24.023 65
Sebastian Vettel Toro Rosso 1m24.873 50



The above sure does not show Sebas getting shown the way. And, the above times are what, only about the 4th time Sebas been in the car? Man, give me a break, the above results of the last day in Jarez are rather stunning in terms of his performance. New team, new car, new everything, and I think he did damn good in that last test ( and it took him a few times in the car to really start going, but the above is amzaing!!)

Stunning, of course.

You put any half decent driver into a midfield car in one test session (In mid-January, when it was drizzly), probably with a lower fuel load than most people and your teammate, and 4th is about what you'd get.

ie, it's not very amazing.

[anthonyvop]

Champcar's real roots are driving around a 2.5 mile track formerly paved with bricks. End of story.

You are soooooooooooooooooo WRONG!!!!

http://www.americangrandprize.com/index.html

Indy is just another oval race......And a boring one at that!!!

[F1jet]

Was it really a shame?
No, there was no shame in having two racing series - it meant more to see. I'll miss "red-line tires", "push-to-pass" and all the different things the two series did to distinguish themselves just as much as Tony George's F1 race.
Casualties are part of racing.

There are litterally THOUSANDS of posts throughout these forums expressing outrage about this sport. Where's the love?

If only some of these posters with their one-way only viewpoints and revisionist histories would get behind the wheel of a 190 MPH land rocket and let their emotions guide them straight into a highlight moment.

We'd clean up the mess and drop the green flag again.

Some ideals die hard, long live open-wheel racing.

[ddnaomi]

this really sucks. CCWS finally got rid of all the oval races and they developed a decent car. Now they are back to stupid ovals and crap wagons.

[Cart750hp]

this really sucks. CCWS finally got rid of all the oval races and they developed a decent car. Now they are back to stupid ovals and crap wagons.

Yeah, I agree....who's stupid now?

[nigelred5]

You are soooooooooooooooooo WRONG!!!!

http://www.americangrandprize.com/index.html

Indy is just another oval race......And a boring one at that!!!

Whatever. And exactly what was it that linked Champcar's feeble attempt at claiming an unbroken history of road racing to 1908? A recreation of a trophy that hadn't been awarded but three times since 1916? And even then, it was most recently awarded to a formula Junior car. Hmmmmmmm? I seem to recall that history they claimed and fought over was very consistently centered around " just another oval race" until King George took his ball and went off t opout. The cars, teams and drivers I remember sure seem to have a pretty strong connection to that oval race. Champcar's history didn't go through F5000 through the 70's and 80's, it was dominated by the heritage of "just another oval race". Teams came out of other forms of racing to compete there. There was no CART before 1979 and the majority of the teams that formed it did not come from some unbroken history of open wheel road racing in this country. People seem to like to remember things surrounding CART in vastly different ways than I seem to remember it. I've also never understood the fanatical attachment people seem to have held to that trophy. It's a false history CART laid claim to IMHO.

I guess I was following a different form of racing than you for the past 40 years.

[Rogelio]

You have to assume that attendance at Long Beach will be abysmal at best. I am sure that there are a lot of unanswered questions still, but the reality is, the race weekend will be a joke. Will the Atlantic Series race? Yea, I know that the other series is racing (ALMS). But my point is, the fans of Long Beach are being screwed.

I am glad I did not make plans to be there this year (first time in 18 years). Maybe the race should be 1/2 price or something. Regardless, we will have to win the fans back next year. Of all things, imagine if it rained all weekend and even on race day (Pooks magic).

[nigelred5]

Yeah, I agree....who's stupid now?

Well, to me that says something in spades about that foolish decision to drop the ovals and design a roadcourse dedicated package in the first place. If it wasn't, why has there been almost annual attempts to reunite the series? That oval was never going to go away and EVERYONE knows it.

[nigelred5]

You know, it cracks me up that so many posters and FANS of CART/Indycar/CHampcar have always proclaimed that the superiority of the series over just about any other form of openwheel racing on the planet was it's diversity of tracks and quality of drivers. They always proclaimed how the challenge of a superspeedway one week, a bullring the next, then a street course or road course was the ultimate challenge of driving skill. Then the IRL comes along and suddenly their grandmother could drive an oval, it doesn't take any skill, simply because TG took his ball and found new friends to play with for a while. BS. If they chose to, they could put a car on track that the mighty Fangio(who didn't have the balls to race at indy) couldn't make go straight.

I always favored the mix and the challenge of the CART version of racing, but as soon as they chose to eliminate that challenge, they lost the claim to superiority They lost the claim to what was unique about Champcar and were doomed to failure in this country from that moment. Once they chose a road course only package and eliminated ovals from the schedule, there was no hope that they would come out of a reunification on top. I'm not defending TG by any means, but he has at least been smart enought to recognize what people really want, and that is a mix of it ALL in ONE series. I prefer road racing, however major league road racing of any kind has never succeeded in this country long term.

Fact is, this has been nothing more than a stupid a$$ 13 year long pissing match. What I find ironic is, Most of the original players in the pissin match have been playing together for a while now. 2/3 of The Amigos weren't even in the series when the split happened, and those that were wwere smart enough to stay out of ownership of the series because they have known all along what was needed.

[Rogelio]

You know, it cracks me up that so many posters and FANS of CART/Indycar/CHampcar have always proclaimed that the superiority of the series over just about any other form of openwheel racing on the planet was it's diversity of tracks and quality of drivers. They always proclaimed how the challenge of a superspeedway one week, a bullring the next, then a street course or road course was the ultimate challenge of driving skill. Then the IRL comes along and suddenly their grandmother could drive an oval, it doesn't take any skill, simply because TG took his ball and found new friends to play with for a while. BS. If they chose to, they could put a car on track that the mighty Fangio(who didn't have the balls to race at indy) couldn't make go straight.

I always favored the mix and the challenge of the CART version of racing, but as soon as they chose to eliminate that challenge, they lost the claim to superiority They lost the claim to what was unique about Champcar and were doomed to failure in this country from that moment. Once they chose a road course only package and eliminated ovals from the schedule, there was no hope that they would come out of a reunification on top. I'm not defending TG by any means, but he has at least been smart enought to recognize what people really want, and that is a mix of it ALL in ONE series. I prefer road racing, however major league road racing of any kind has never succeeded in this country long term.

Fact is, this has been nothing more than a stupid a$$ 13 year long pissing match. What I find ironic is, Most of the original players in the pissin match have been playing together for a while now. 2/3 of The Amigos weren't even in the series when the split happened, and those that were wwere smart enough to stay out of ownership of the series because they have known all along what was needed.

As a CART/Champ Car fan, I always admired the diversity of our series. Unfortuantely, the Amigos just never got it. They thought that street courses (I loved Vegas) were the answer and that ovals were a losing proposition.

If we look at the success of NASCAR; its "strategy" is all oval with the exception of two races. Ovals are much more television friendly, even though I prefer street/road courses/ovals. I love watching F1, but it sure gets boring as the cars spread out. There are a lot of factors that come into play during a 500 mile race. I am looking forward to oval racing again.

[Albert D. Kallal]

Stunning, of course.

You put any half decent driver into a midfield car in one test session (In mid-January, when it was drizzly), probably with a lower fuel load than most people and your teammate, and 4th is about what you'd get.

ie, it's not very amazing.

Ya, right. So, everyone else had some special handicap, and a guy walks in after being in the car for the 4 th time in his life, and is only beat by 3 people on the grid? Yup, I see you have a real intellectual grasp of racing here. You mean only 3 drivers beat him? yes, he is "really" being shown the way here!

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[ShiftingGears]

Ya, right. So, everyone else had some special handicap, and a guy walks in after being in the car for the 4 th time in his life, and is only beat by 3 people on the grid? Yup, I see you have a real intellectual grasp of racing here. You mean only 3 drivers beat him? yes, he is "really" being shown the way here!

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

It is testing times, on a day with changing conditions. Not racing. If we believed those testing results, Bourdais is better than Raikkonen, Toyota is the best car out there.

Real reflective of drivers true pace, innit? :rolleyes:

[Albert D. Kallal]

It is testing times, on a day with changing conditions. Not racing. If we believed those testing results, Bourdais is better than Raikkonen, Toyota is the best car out there.

Real reflective of drivers true pace, innit? :rolleyes:

Well, mallen stated that Sebastian is being “shown the way”.

You can spin this conclusion two ways:

If you can’t use the testing data and examples of those tests sessions, then how do you have any proof or evidence to state that Sebastian is being “shown the way” (to quote mallen’s comment).

It would be sheer hypocrisy to stand here and tell me that since the test sessions mean absolutely nothing all, then how can one make this claim that Sebastian is not competitive? Gee, is it not wonderful when stupid reasoning bitch slaps you right back?

On the other hand if you’re going to make the claim that he’s not competitive, the only evidence you have to propose here is those tests sessions?

So which is it Mr. Sherlock? The test sessions can not be used, and therefore you have no evidence to say he’s a slump. Or, we can use the sessions and the example data I posted?

Either way, mallen’s comments don’t hold up to Scrutiny.

It just blows my mind that people are willing to make a statement that Sebastion is not competitive.

If we don’t have any reliable test data to show he’s not competitive, then how on earth can we make this claim that Sebastian is not competitive?

At the end of the day am willing to give the argument either way, we can NOT use this information, so let’s not make conclusions about its performance yet!

On the other hand if a person’s going a publicly state that Sebastian is not competitive, we must be using some information to support that point view, are we not?

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[djparky]

no it's not a shame at all- CCWS was an utter joke for the last few years, very poor management, ever changing driver line up, poor quality of driver talent low car counts, few sponsors etc etc

yes some races will be lost this year but these may come back in 2009- eg Cleveland and Road America

it's over now- move on with it- either watch the Indy Car series or do something else instead- I'm thrilled that this has finally happened- will actually give me a reason to watch it this year

[Rex Monaco]

However, even CCWS shows that you can move forward (new cars, standing starts, 800hp p2p, soft/hard tires, hans device…the list is quite long.). I am only expressing my concerns as to the IRL did not really move forward in terms of what they did with rules, cars, or anything in the same time period.

A few of those things are important, and a few of them aren't.

I agree that the IRL product is lacking. But I would assume that this is also part of the negotiation process.

Why spend money developing a new from the ground up chassis, when the Panoz is far from being fully developed and was alledgedly designed to be run on ovals as well?

I would expect the IRL to adopt to DP01 in some form, AFTER they decide an engine formula.

And to me, the engine formula is paramount to the success of bringing manufacturers back into the series. It's great to speak about cost containment. But if you contain the car's speed and the introduction of technology, then all you have is a series that does highspeed parade laps in spec cars. You might as well put them on computer simulators to really contain costs.

I'd adopt an open engine formula. The manufacturers are seeking new technologies for alternative fuels. So make this the center of your engine formula. The development costs become part of the OE's R&D, as well as their marketing, because they can develop a Turbo Diesel or Electric Hybrid, win at Indy and prove to the sceptical motoring public that these engines are worthy of being replacing our favored V8's.

A half wit like me could turn this series around in 5 years and make the I500 rival Le Mans again for prestige.

[Claus Hansen]

Yep, merger happen all the time, and life goes on, there is only one or two things i dont understand, looking at teams and drivers, arent we back at pre IRL / CHAMPCAR times, only TG at last have the keys, i wonder how much he had to pay out to get them ???

Also i dont understand why its being laid out as IRL has won, as i see it, the are both in a dire state, grids under 20 cars each, not much in terms of sponsors, chassis, enignes... They both needed each other, i just hope that its not to late...

Anyway, we are going racing this year, the cars are ugly, yes, a bit to many ovals for my taste, but i will still support Tracy, just wonder if he's racing ???

[FlatChatRacer]

Albert D. Kallal,

This was not a merger. The IRL simply absorbed Champ Car.

You make some interesting points about the attraction of the former Champ Car and CART series. I agree with most of them.

The point I would like to make is that the IRL could not truly succeed and expand, whilst Champ Car was still around to muddy the waters. The main impediment to probable success for the IRL has been removed.

Now, as you said, there is no guarantee that the correct strategy will be adopted by the IRL/Indycar. Whatever that strategy should be. Based on past performance, they could struggle.

In my opinion (and it is where we differ and can discuss), I believe that the IRL will be front page news within five years in North America. However, there are caveats.

1. The number of races must always be at least 20, with no more than a 2 week gap between each race.
- Minimum 5 ovals in any season
- Minimum 5 road races in any season
- Indy reduced to 3 weekends instead of 5. Less time will bring more intensity.

2. There should be no events outside of the NAFTA region. Yes, that means dropping Australia at some point.

3. Star drivers must be placed on special multi-year contracts to retain them.

4. Break the bank and invite AJ Almendinger, J. Villeneuve, Sc. Speed and J.P. Montoya to join the series.

5. Base the marketing strategy around the drivers. Each driver must have a number that is his/her personal id. Ala Nascar.

6. Issue a mandate which makes it compulsory for any car to have the number of the driver on each side of the rear wing and air box. This has been a huge succes in NASCAR.

7. Create a Triple Crown series. Special multi-million dollar prize fund for the winning team and driver of an non-Indy Oval, Road and Street course. If they win Indy as well, then they have achieved the GRAND SLAM.

8. Include Road America in the series and rename it the Paul Newman classic.
If he gives his permission, then this can be marketed very well, and McDonalds will likely want to have significant involvement.

9. Award a special prize of a fully funded Formula One test with Williams/Mclaren/Renault teams for the 2 drivers who win the most races and most points on the Road/Street circuits. ---- The publicity from this can again be used as a selling point.

10. Hold a national competition to design the outer shell/shape of the next IRL/Indycar. Let the fans decide what they want to see and consider aesthetically pleasing. Expert panel chooses 5 designs from public for final competition. Then have a massive publicity campaign and get evryone to vote. The winner is the peoples choice. The internals and engineering of the car will be done by Dallara or Panoz.

----------

I could on and on with other ideas, and I am sure you could add to it, or amend.

The IRL/Indycar has a unique opportunity to capitalise and stake a claim for some of that valuable sponsorship money, along with a significant share of the TV sport ratings.

[EagleEye]

This merger does actually zero to solve the download spiral that the IRL is in right now.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

First, Mr. Kallal, it is not a merger. Those like you who failed to grasp how financially strapped Champcar was called out anyone who attempted to paint the real picture: Champcar was dying. Champcar died, and luckily there was another series to come along to recover some of the pieces.

Facts by those who are part of the series accurately described the crisis and were labeled "D&G'ers". Some here who should be ashamed at the venom they spewed at those who have been part of the sport, and were only reporting the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts!

As for predicting the failure of a unified series, I’d say give it some time. The IRL did have minute ratings increases on television, and many of the races that are being lost this year will be back in 2009. Additionally, ABC/ESPN, Bridgestone, all teams, drivers, suppliers and venues support a unified series (save for the bald one).

You concluding statement is as bad as those who use to say Peyton Manning and Tony Dungy will never win the big one. History has proof that such absolute statements usually are false.

Give it time. All the players involved are behind it, and the fans should start to come together as one, and start arguing which driver/team/track/race is best instead of how many people were at a race.

I’m delighted that Tony George took it upon himself, to come up with a solution, and take it all the way to formalizing a unified series. Give credit where credit is due.

The 2008 season today, holds far more excitement and intrigue than at any time in the last twelve years!

[F1boat]

Albert, I believe that CART had better drivers than IRL, but IRL Indy Car had a superior field to CCWS. Look how tough the IRL championships were and how easily Seb won in CCWS. Seb had no true rivals - Tracy was old and the others are average. In IRL there were several great drivers - Sam, Dario, Dan...

[Albert D. Kallal]

Albert D. Kallal,

This was not a merger. The IRL simply absorbed Champ Car.


I totally agree with the above.



You make some interesting points about the attraction of the former Champ Car and CART series. I agree with most of them.

The point I would like to make is that the IRL could not truly succeed and expand, whilst Champ Car was still around to muddy the waters. The main impediment to probable success for the IRL has been removed.


I sincerely hope that is the case. A number of people this thread have rightly pointed out that look at the kind of equipment NASCAR has, and look at how popular it became. There’s no question that with the Unified series, better promotion, and more money pushed into one vision of a racing series, it has a far better chance.

In this regards the merger is the best thing that happened to open wheel racing in a long time. ( By the way just to avoid any sore spots here, I’m using the word merger, but a more fair word is capitulation on the champ car side – for those that don’t know me, I’m not trying to play a game of word semantics, and I don’t mince words very often at all – the term merge is a poor term to use, but that’s what I using here).



In my opinion (and it is where we differ and can discuss), I believe that the IRL will be front page news within five years in North America. However, there are caveats.


There’s no question that speed T. V., speed vision, general sports newscasters, and most of them WILL HAVE A FAR BETTER chance to report on one series. Once again I agree with this. Your comments about a more full schedule and no big huge gaps in the racing also makes a heap of sense.

My point about the cars and technology was that many of its champ car fans will miss the level of racing that as a result of the performance of the cars that we had. That’s not the end of the world here. It really comes down to is this going to be PR, or racing?

As I said the IRL has little, if any intention to raise the bar of their cars since they risk loosing people like Dankia, Fisher, Milka. Note how much of a hard time Katherine Legge had jumping into champ car. I believe that the above 3 IRL drives would also have this difficulty. In fact, we saw last year the IRL doing things like introduction variable ratio steering for Danika (And perhaps worse is not even telling anybody). And, then there is the driver + weight rule. Note that Paul Tracy is absolute finished due to to this weight issue and weight penalty (anywhere from .1 to .3 seconds per lap on a road course).

If in 12 years the vision and direction of the IRL was not to make the series more challenging but in fact twisting in huge amount of wing on those full throttle ovals, then it is simply next to impossible to believe that this vision and philosophy will change now. (and, likely for the most part fans in the IRL never cared about this stuff much, and that's likely why they continued to be, and were fans of the IRL -- I can't stress more how I say there's absolutely nothing wrong with that situation, and I not trying to judge the fans of that series, it just a a question of a different philosophy here).

There are too many things in place to prevent this kind of change.
Now, as many said, nothing wrong with the above if you promote the hell out of it, and that's ok.

However without vision to make this a high level of racing, then people like Graham Rahal will NEVER graduate of the series and move on to formula one (which is a dream of his). This is a huge price to pay, but then again, perhaps people today don’t care about racing the way I do. Note I am totally able and willing to admit that my vision is not the vision of the IRL. Futhermore I'm even more so willing to admit that my vision may not be commercially viable anyway (champ much car proves that). Furthermore to that, who's to say that my vision is the right one? It is ONLY a vision that I happened to really like, and champ matched that more then did the IRL. I'm not sure if at the end of the day what I like amounts to a hill of beans, but I can tell you what I happen like. I watch NHL hockey, not AA hockey becuase of the level of the sport.



2. There should be no events outside of the NAFTA region. Yes, that means dropping Australia at some point.


Ouch!! That hurts! No more japan, no more Australia? ( once again I understand your reasoning wide, and has to do with promotion North American sponsorship)



8. Include Road America in the series and rename it the Paul Newman classic.
If he gives his permission, then this can be marketed very well, and McDonalds will likely want to have significant involvement.


Unfortunately I think Honda calls the shots on this one, and is committed to mid Ohio, I don’t think we’ll see both, but stranger things have happened.

I think I will stop that this point, as my posts have been much too long here…to the point of being rude…

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[Albert D. Kallal]

Albert, I believe that CART had better drivers than IRL, but IRL Indy Car had a superior field to CCWS. Look how tough the IRL championships were and how easily Seb won in CCWS. Seb had no true rivals - Tracy was old and the others are average. In IRL there were several great drivers - Sam, Dario, Dan...

Hum, this one comes down to how you view things. First of all by midway Season last year we had a three way points tie. Sebastian, Doornbos, and Will power we’re actually tied for points (so, Sebass was NOT kicking thier butts). Things fell apart for Power and Doornbos ( between mistakes and mechanical failures, they simply handed the championship on a silver platter to Sebastian.

Sebastion had a better team, but the other drivers were giving Sebastion a run for the money Until their season's just fell apart.

Furthermore when IRL driver buddy rice (well, guess he a IRL dirver) did a stint in A1GP, he wasn’t really competitive. We sent over Neel Jani, and not only did land on the poll, but he also won on that race. By the way he’s on the pole again this weekend. If you look at the number of drivers in champ car that had CURRENT F1 experience (as drivers, or f1 test drivers), the list was quite long.

Remember the last two years we had Red Bull pushing sponsorship money and test drivers from f1 into champ car because of the rule changes in f1 (Red bull wanted to keep those drivers busy, and they had signed contracts – but, f1 rules limited driving hours).

The number of drivers in camp car with recent formula one experience as drivers, or test drivers was certainly longer then that of the IRL.

Robert Doornbos (test driver – Jordan, and drove for Minardi (2005, 8 f1 races)

Justin Wilson (2003, Minardi, and 5 races with Jaguar)

Neel Jani (Toro Rosso, signed as 3rd driver)

Sebastion (just went to f1)

The champ car site is down, so I can’t grab other names and bio. Furthermore, in all my years of watching racing, one of the BEST talents I have EVER seen drive is Will Power (he is more amazing then Zanrdi or Montoya). Power is simply one of the most gifted talents I have EVER seen…

And, we also have several f3000 people like Tristan Gommendy (French 3000 champion).

So, I do consider the depth of the field in champ car for the last few years of a higher quality then that of IRL (however, this is just my humble opinion on this matter).

Keep in mind that many of these drivers were willing to do a stint down in champ car while they wait, or try to get a ride back into F1. You did not see this “flow” of f1 drivers, or test drivers going to the IRL in the last few years like you did see in champ car…

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[ShiftingGears]

Well, mallen stated that Sebastian is being “shown the way”.

You can spin this conclusion two ways:

If you can’t use the testing data and examples of those tests sessions, then how do you have any proof or evidence to state that Sebastian is being “shown the way” (to quote mallen’s comment).

It would be sheer hypocrisy to stand here and tell me that since the test sessions mean absolutely nothing all, then how can one make this claim that Sebastian is not competitive? Gee, is it not wonderful when stupid reasoning bitch slaps you right back?

On the other hand if you’re going to make the claim that he’s not competitive, the only evidence you have to propose here is those tests sessions?

So which is it Mr. Sherlock? The test sessions can not be used, and therefore you have no evidence to say he’s a slump. Or, we can use the sessions and the example data I posted?

Either way, mallen’s comments don’t hold up to Scrutiny.

It just blows my mind that people are willing to make a statement that Sebastion is not competitive.

If we don’t have any reliable test data to show he’s not competitive, then how on earth can we make this claim that Sebastian is not competitive?

At the end of the day am willing to give the argument either way, we can NOT use this information, so let’s not make conclusions about its performance yet!

On the other hand if a person’s going a publicly state that Sebastian is not competitive, we must be using some information to support that point view, are we not?

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

Look at every other testing time -
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33759
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33765
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33772

All in consistent conditions. Vettel has been faster than Bourdais in all of those test sessions. And because your statistics were from interchangable conditions, where car setup is hit and miss, it is not truely reflective of driver pace, as much as consistant conditions are. Of which, Bourdais has been bettered by Vettel. We will find out the true pace of the drivers in March.

[F1boat]

I dunno, Albert, to me Gommendy, Wilson, seemed as good average drivers and F1 wannabes, not Indy Car stars.
Matter of opinion, I guess.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It isn't a shame at all really. It is sad, but what we saw in CCWS the last two years was a shadow of what CART was in its heyday and the dead horse flogging was obvious. 17 car fields do NOT cut it and that is what we had. I would live with it for a season or two, but last year turned me off. It isn't a shame, although it is a shame in a sense Tony George won, but lets remember 2 very important points:

The IRL survived because TG wasn't afraid to spend HIS money to put his product out there. KK and the boys didn't have the courage of their convictions and it showed last year. The IRL "won" ( we all lost really for 13 years of destroying a large fan base and handing it to the France family on a silver platter) because they survived, they have the one gem left in OW (the Indy 500 is tarnished but still worthy) and they had most of the bigger teams from the old CART and most of the nameworthy talent. CCWS had to differentiate itself as a different product, and they didn't really have a clue what they were. One year, street racing was the idea, then they had a go to Europe moment. Of course when you jump around like this, you alienate people.

2) the IRL won because they are going back basically to the original CART formula. Maybe not enough road/street races yet, but 09 is the key. If they bring back Road America, Toronto, Cleveland and Laguna; then they will be pretty much on target for the right mix of venues. The IRL in the last few years started to become more interesting to me because they decided to reach out to the road race fans. There isn't enough strictly road racing fans or oval only fans to make an OW series of this scope survive.

The last 13 years has proven two series cannot survive fighting for the same fans, and the fans of both series have to accept that ovals and road courses are part of a winning mix. Tony George didn't see this 13 years ago, but I think he is figuring it out now. Of course, he was an idiot for not seeing it before he spent all this money to gain control of OW racing, but in the last two years he has done the marketing side reasonably well (bad jingles and Gene Simmons are the only real glitches), he has kept the TV contract PAYING him rather than the other way around, and he has found ways to cross promote into other markets (Helio's dance steps were there because someone suggested Helio could open up people to promote the series by participating. It likely wasn't ABC's idea to include him but even it it was, the IRL was smart enough to capitalize on it.).

Lets face reality people. If CCWS was run properly and with great marketing, they may have made it, but by the end of last year, they had screwed up so badly that the only way out was to euthanize it.

I am sad it came to this, and I am sad for the last 13 years; and I don't have any great love for Tony's role in all of this, but when the dumb jerk comes to his senses and does things right, he has to be given the helm because there is no other real options at this point. The race and track he is the caretaker of is the only real marquee attraction on a national/international basis for either series, and it is that link that provides the history and interest that the sport grew from. To ignore that reality is really pointless.

Oh ya, one more thing. This would be a FAR better outcome if the IRL adopted the DP-01. The Dallaras and G-Force cars are butt ugly to me still.....and THAT wont change.

[FlatChatRacer]

MarkInOshawa,

Excellent post, with well reasoned conclusions.

The only thing I disagree with is the comment about the IRL adopting the DP01. Since a new chassis and design is due within the next year or two, it wouldn't make sense to use a chassis that was not oval ready or converted for a normally aspirated engine.

[jensen541]

I would have loved a Dallara/Cosworth combination as a transition option. It could have been the right answer both on the technical and the political side before preparing for 2009. How knows is Honda will keep supporting this ?

[Easy Drifter]

Welcome back Mark. I, for one, missed your comments. I think you are pretty well spot on. I dislike TG but he has come out on top, although the top is a lot lower than it used to be. So here is hoping for a renewal of big time open wheel racing. (I will still go to Mosport for clubbies and especially vintage, this year a Can-Am revival. I still remember Follmer and Chuck Parsons blasting by me approaching 4 and discovering 2/3rds of the way down 4 that I was going quicker than they were. OOOOPS. Missed T boning Chuck at 5 by inches. Small cars could outcorner the McLarens and Lolas.)
One thing all of us on these forums must remember is we are a tiny group of hard core fans. All of us combined probably couldn't fill the stands at a Sat. night bull ring especially if was a WOO race.
The people we need to get back are the casual TV viewers and hopefully the new series will do that.
Even the Orillia Packet and Times carried news of the amalgamation. They rarely carry anything but NAPCAR and not always that. Last year's front page on Indy read "Italian wins Indy 500". At least the sports pages had it right!

[Hiryu]

Sinces years, fans wanted the OW American Series to find a common ground. Since years they were hopping that a solution would be found. And now that a solution could come up, everybody is like devastated.

1. You don't appreciate what a lousy formula the Dallara/Honda represents. Most hardcore Champ Car fans will not show up to watch those cars and there is no sense that the IRL intends to replace them with something better, meaning that attendence will not noticibly improve.

2. There is still no evidence that Tony George has learned anything from the last decade or so. If anything, he's learned that simply being stubborn and high-handed is its own reward, like a spoiled child who is past being disciplined.

3. If such is the case then American OW racing is terminal and within about five years the Indy 500 will be a NASCAR race.

4. This is not to mention that common ground would be running the IRL series with the Panoz/Cosworth combination, this is merely the IRL picking off a few desirable races. Tony George would be wise not to wash his hands off the investment that the OWRS gang has made in new equipment, as the rumor is that Honda will be dumping the IRL at the end of this season anyway.

[Easy Drifter]

We can bleat and blather all we want but what the series becomes, where it runs, what cars are used all depend on what TG wants.
Heck he could demand the old upright dirt cars with Offys if he wanted. :s hock:

[garyshell]

To be certain, my disdain for "...king George" is well know here, but I want to make two comments.


1. You don't appreciate what a lousy formula the Dallara/Honda represents. Most hardcore Champ Car fans will not show up to watch those cars and there is no sense that the IRL intends to replace them with something better, meaning that attendance will not noticeably improve.


I think there it is obvious that the IRL does indeed intend to replace them. They have clearly stated there will be a new chassis in 2010. They have also made it clear they are looking to think out of the box a bit in their approach to the new chassis.



2. There is still no evidence that Tony George has learned anything from the last decade or so. If anything, he's learned that simply being stubborn and high-handed is its own reward, like a spoiled child who is past being disciplined.


At the risk of sounding like I have become a supporter of "...king George" I have to say that his vision has changed a LOT since the original IRL manifesto. Not the least of which is they do run some non oval races now. So I think he has learned something. Jeeeze, did I really just say that?

Gary

[jimispeed]

I thought the DP01 chassis was designed for oval racing as well!!

They just hadn't began testing with it.

Am I wrong???

[UDFlyer]

So here we are, 12 years after the creation of the 'vision'. What do we have?

Indy 500 glory? Gone
Indy 500 bumping? Gone
Ford? Gone
Toyota? Gone
Mercedes? Gone
Lola? Gone
Reynard? Gone
Swift? Gone
Gurney/Eagle? Gone
Three quarters of the fans? Gone
Too many sponsors to count? Gone
Michigan? Gone
Nazareth? Gone
Road America? Gone
Cleveland? Gone
Toronto? Gone
Laguna Seca? Gone

Ugliest cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Worst-sounding cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Indy 500 and Indy-series champions not even bothering to defend their championships? Check
Indy racing giving power steering to Danica to try to steal a win for her? Check
Shady officiating to steal an Indy 500 win from Paul Tracy? Check
Sports fans now think that the '500' means Daytona? Check

The future of American open-wheel racing is now 100% being led by the man that is 100% percent responsible for all of this. And we're supposed to be happy about this?

Paul Tracy was right, and I'm heading for my local figure-8 track.

[ShiftingGears]

So here we are, 12 years after the creation of the 'vision'. What do we have?

Indy 500 glory? Gone
Indy 500 bumping? Gone
Ford? Gone
Toyota? Gone
Mercedes? Gone
Lola? Gone
Reynard? Gone
Swift? Gone
Gurney/Eagle? Gone
Three quarters of the fans? Gone
Too many sponsors to count? Gone
Michigan? Gone
Nazareth? Gone
Road America? Gone
Cleveland? Gone
Toronto? Gone
Laguna Seca? Gone

Ugliest cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Worst-sounding cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Indy 500 and Indy-series champions not even bothering to defend their championships? Check
Indy racing giving power steering to Danica to try to steal a win for her? Check
Shady officiating to steal an Indy 500 win from Paul Tracy? Check
Sports fans now think that the '500' means Daytona? Check

The future of American open-wheel racing is now 100% being led by the man that is 100% percent responsible for all of this. And we're supposed to be happy about this?

Paul Tracy was right, and I'm heading for my local figure-8 track.

Aren't you glad, that at least because the split is over, that AOWR can be rebuilt? It's not impossible. And some CCWS tracks will return. For instance, Michigan has expressed interest in holding another race. It'll get rebuilt. And I'd trust TG in keeping a series stable, more than KK. And thats what AOWR has been missing.
A single series with all the headlines, with fans not being confused as to why the cars and drivers at Long Beach aren't the same as the ones at Indy 500.

[CCWS77]

Can we all agree both CC and the IRL had serious problems? I think so. But thier problems were different. So what do you get when you kill one and really dont change much about the other? That just is not a platform to build the future on.

The problem with this "merger" is that in order to assume it fixes anything you have to start with the faulty assumtion that the simple fact that there were 2 racing series is really the only fundamental problem that was broken. Don't you have to have your head in the sand to believe that? I think so. There are dozens of racing series out there in case you didnt notice. Sacrificing one is not a magic fix to some other one.




The IRL is not in business to create drivers who will challenge F1, as you so naively claim. They are in business for themselves . . . they need to KEEP drivers.



To me this is an example of a statement that shows the naivety of IRL supporters who somehow have it thier head that Champ Car, which the general public has never heard of, was somehow an impedement to the IRL growing and doing well. You are fundamentally unable to evalute where your series really is. THere are 3 possible levels of driver talent.
1)driver talent equal to or even better then F1 (so that IRL can "KEEP" them)
2)driver talent a level below that so that the IRL winners can move up to F1
3)driver talent at a low level where F1 does not even consider IRL drivers
CCWS was in category 2, IRL is in 3 not 1

I think that sure in a couple years maybe this new IRL will improve. But it is not a given at all. As a CCWS fan I see now a merged series that has a couple years of improvements to make just to get back to what we had in 2007. If you find that exciting for the sport I have to scratch my head in puzzlement.

[nigelred5]

The IRL will have a new package for 2010, that has never been disputed. It was frozen when Honda became the sole supplier. The Panoz IRL chassis is still legal, it's just not as competetive.

I've always been in favor of an equivalency formula but honestly, what other REALISTIC option was there for equipment for a series merged in such short order? There was no way it would fly with ANY of the current IRL teams if they had to buy new equipment in the form of the DP01, and they would cry foul anyway as they arent' seen as the ones that need to be accomodated. There isn't a surplus of DP01's sitting around that could have accomodated the combined field, and Honda isn't going to just yank and entire inventory of current engines and re-engineer an old 2.65l turbo to supply even half of the field in a month. Honda's dumping a lot of monet into the series and they surely aren;t going to risk being beaten by an unbranded Cosworth. IRL teams also have a contract that the current package will remain the same until 2010. Besides, TG probably owns half of the current inventory of Dallara's to begin with and how many CC teams actually took the lease option on the DP01 and didn't own their chassis anyway?

I would have loved to seen a dual series of 08 run under a merged Indycar organization for a year with Indy and possibly some late season races being the only head to head events, then a more reasonable sorted merged series and schedule for 09, and a totally new package for 2010 but the way this went down, that is unrealistic with no one writing the checks on the CCWS side.
The DP01 was certainly faster than the what, six year old Lola, and any new car should have been right out of the box, but it obviously wasn't the savior everyone makes it out to be and while it is a far nicer looking car than the Dallara, IMHO it isn't all that and I've never thought it was. Give me a 93 Lola. THAT's an INDYCAR!
Now for the future, there's no reason why an updated DP01 with an oval package can't be considered for one of the replacements if they can be built to the regs. but in fairness to anyone involved, The sad ol IRL pakage was the only real option.

Dang, I'm the king of the run-on this morning!!

[UDFlyer]

Aren't you glad, that at least because the split is over, that AOWR can be rebuilt? It's not impossible. And some CCWS tracks will return. For instance, Michigan has expressed interest in holding another race. It'll get rebuilt. And I'd trust TG in keeping a series stable, more than KK. And thats what AOWR has been missing.
A single series with all the headlines, with fans not being confused as to why the cars and drivers at Long Beach aren't the same as the ones at Indy 500.

Can it be rebuilt? Of course. Will it? Doubtful. Trust in TG is something that I absolutely do not have, since every single one of his original reasons for creating the IRL in the first place were shown to be lies. His only interest then was power, and I see no reason to believe differently now.

[nigelred5]

true, but now that he has the power and has shown that he does in fact listen to people with road racing interests like RP and TG, and he now understands first hand what it costs t orun a team, I'm CAUTIOUSLY optomistic and at least willing to give it a chance enough that I've already looked at tickets for Richmond, Watkins GLen and Indy for the first time in 12 years.

[bblocker68]

Glad to see that we are back together as one big happy family, lol.

I read that Long Beach will be a flop. That is far from the truth. Friday and Saturday attendance is very strong with the addition of ALMS. The ALMS crowd was close to the CC crowd from what I saw.

I also read that the Panoz DP-01 was not tested for oval or could accomdate an air box. Look at the DP-09, sister of the DP-01. It has an airbox. Also, speedway parts for the DP-01 were drawn up and probably model tested, I'm just not sure if any pieces were made.

For 2010 they should break the mold and actually make a car for the future using green fuel and energy replacement technology. Make it narrow for streets and roadies and make it with tunnels so the cars dont have to depend on wings as much. This would decrease the disturbed air it creates and provide closer racing. Take bids from Dallara, Panoz, Lola and whoever else and lets see some good competition. Engines from Honda and Cosworth would be welcomed!!

I'm done with the split and bickering in the past. I'm excited and very much looking forward to the future.

If you fail to adapt, you will become extinct!

[nigelred5]

I agree with the new car, but I'd much prefer to see them go back to say, 1980's style regs and more open competition. Set down the parameters, let them run it through tech, and see what they are made of. I want to see real chassis and engine competetion again, NOT spec cars. 0-10 might need to be limited.

[djparky]

So here we are, 12 years after the creation of the 'vision'. What do we have?

Indy 500 glory? Gone
Indy 500 bumping? Gone
Ford? Gone
Toyota? Gone
Mercedes? Gone
Lola? Gone
Reynard? Gone
Swift? Gone
Gurney/Eagle? Gone
Three quarters of the fans? Gone
Too many sponsors to count? Gone
Michigan? Gone
Nazareth? Gone
Road America? Gone
Cleveland? Gone
Toronto? Gone
Laguna Seca? Gone

Ugliest cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Worst-sounding cars in the history of Indy racing? Check
Indy 500 and Indy-series champions not even bothering to defend their championships? Check
Indy racing giving power steering to Danica to try to steal a win for her? Check
Shady officiating to steal an Indy 500 win from Paul Tracy? Check
Sports fans now think that the '500' means Daytona? Check

The future of American open-wheel racing is now 100% being led by the man that is 100% percent responsible for all of this. And we're supposed to be happy about this?

Paul Tracy was right, and I'm heading for my local figure-8 track.

well yeah- but would you simply prefer the joke that is CCWS carry on as is for another couple of years- I might add that that CCWS willfully abandoned the ovals as well and also dropped Road America and Laguna Seca from it's schedule- to be replaced with deathly dull street races

CART wasn't beyond dodgy decision making either- anyone remember the infamous pop=off valve incident that drove Honda & Toyota to the IRL?? CART drove out alot of it's supporters through incompetence and bad management, CCWS never had any real sponsors to worry about

anyway some of those races will probably be back in 2009, there will be a new car and everyone will move on with life

[UDFlyer]

well yeah- but would you simply prefer the joke that is CCWS carry on as is for another couple of years- I might add that that CCWS willfully abandoned the ovals as well and also dropped Road America and Laguna Seca from it's schedule- to be replaced with deathly dull street races

CART wasn't beyond dodgy decision making either- anyone remember the infamous pop=off valve incident that drove Honda & Toyota to the IRL?? CART drove out alot of it's supporters through incompetence and bad management, CCWS never had any real sponsors to worry about

anyway some of those races will probably be back in 2009, there will be a new car and everyone will move on with life


You make some valid points (which ones don't really matter), but for me they don't out-weigh my disgust at the idea of handing over my disposable entertainment dollars to Tony George.

Moving on with life is no problem - watching racing never had anything to do with that - and there are a myriad of entertainment options that will now get consideration from me. Some will certainly involve racing, but none that involve TG.