CHOICES vs COLLATERAL DAMAGE

[pits4me]

If Tony George, Honda, Kevin Kalkhoven and Jerry Forsythe had been able to work out an eleventh-hour deal to make a merger happen there would have been a large number of seriously injured entities from spurned Champ Car tracks to drivers whose personal sponsorship deals were based on foreign races. There would also have been a tremendous amount of disgruntlement from the small Champ Car teams who would have had little time or resources to properly prepare themselves to go racing with a new car/engine package and from the smaller IRL teams who would have found themselves blown off by the better Champ Car teams and reduced to roles as even more marginal players. And too, a merger may also have presaged the ultimate destruction of Cosworth, one of racing's most historic and accomplished engine builders--although that sad occurence may yet happen. - Kirby

Gordon sort of puts things into better perspective. While folks are pleased with the thought of a unified open wheel series, the situation begs some thought be dedicated to the impact this will have if done too hastily and desregard the legacy supporters of the past and present.

Tony George continues to force feed us the WWF version of open wheel, the absolute worst version of a spec open wheel series in existence. The DP01 and proposed new Lola were refreshing. The DP09 version of Panoz looks very accommodating for 2009. Instead we have to watch ugly IRL cars. I guess I'll be watching more ALMS 2008 and hope F1 comes back to Long Beach in 2010.

Would you rather attend:

Houston or Kansas?
Laguna Seca or Infinion?
Iowa or Cleveland?
Toronto or Watkins Glen? Can we accommodate both by dropping Mid Ohio?
Road America vs Kentucky?

I like road racing, street racing, ovals should be minimal.

[FormerFF]

Like you, I much prefer road racing. I'm a big fan of the ALMS. Grand Am puts on a good show as well. What we will do for open wheel road racing in this hemisphere, I'm not sure.

[dataman1]

We need to be mindful of another group of Collateral Damage which are the employees of CCWS. Some wonderful people have given uncountable years serving a series that was mis-managed by owners and/or destroyed by greed.

Folks like Billy Kamphausen who has spent his entire adulthood in the sport will be looking for a job. There is Cathy Lyon who built the pace car program to a wonderful success and Nicole Norris in Registration or Denise Swintel who knows the rule book better than anyone. These are real people who did nothing but give their heart and sole. Add in the hundred or so weekend warriors who manned timing and scoring, the safety team, technical inspection and pit lane officiating.

These are the real victims. The rich guys won't miss a meal or a vacation and they will get tax breaks for the losses incurred in this misadventure. The drivers will still drive something.

Let us not forget who really made the show work.

[F1boat]

We need to be mindful of another group of Collateral Damage which are the employees of CCWS. Some wonderful people have given uncountable years serving a series that was mis-managed by owners and/or destroyed by greed.

Folks like Billy Kamphausen who has spent his entire adulthood in the sport will be looking for a job. There is Cathy Lyon who built the pace car program to a wonderful success and Nicole Norris in Registration or Denise Swintel who knows the rule book better than anyone. These are real people who did nothing but give their heart and sole. Add in the hundred or so weekend warriors who manned timing and scoring, the safety team, technical inspection and pit lane officiating.

These are the real victims. The rich guys won't miss a meal or a vacation and they will get tax breaks for the losses incurred in this misadventure. The drivers will still drive something.

Let us not forget who really made the show work.

I hope that IRL will add this wonderful people to its own series. They deserve to see a united series.

[ChaimWitz]

We need to be mindful of another group of Collateral Damage which are the employees of CCWS. Some wonderful people have given uncountable years serving a series that was mis-managed by owners and/or destroyed by greed.

Folks like Billy Kamphausen who has spent his entire adulthood in the sport will be looking for a job. There is Cathy Lyon who built the pace car program to a wonderful success and Nicole Norris in Registration or Denise Swintel who knows the rule book better than anyone. These are real people who did nothing but give their heart and sole. Add in the hundred or so weekend warriors who manned timing and scoring, the safety team, technical inspection and pit lane officiating.

These are the real victims. The rich guys won't miss a meal or a vacation and they will get tax breaks for the losses incurred in this misadventure. The drivers will still drive something.

Let us not forget who really made the show work.

My thoughts are with these wonderful people who have done their best and kept it positive no matter how bad things got around them. My fondest hope is that they all continue on in the sport that they love. To me they are the spirit of what was great about CART and ChampCar. The IRL would be wise to hire them because they are going to need more people with solid experience to make it all work. God bless all of you who made CART and CC tick and thank you for everything you have done for me over the years—this mess isn't your fault!

[Sandfly]

We need to be mindful of another group of Collateral Damage which are the employees of CCWS. Some wonderful people have given uncountable years serving a series that was mis-managed by owners and/or destroyed by greed.

Folks like Billy Kamphausen who has spent his entire adulthood in the sport will be looking for a job. There is Cathy Lyon who built the pace car program to a wonderful success and Nicole Norris in Registration or Denise Swintel who knows the rule book better than anyone. These are real people who did nothing but give their heart and sole. Add in the hundred or so weekend warriors who manned timing and scoring, the safety team, technical inspection and pit lane officiating.

These are the real victims. The rich guys won't miss a meal or a vacation and they will get tax breaks for the losses incurred in this misadventure. The drivers will still drive something.

Let us not forget who really made the show work.

Right on Brother! I have had the great fortune to meet many of those folks and they are absolute professionals. They are the most experienced people in the world at what they do. That is the real tragedy of the merger - that these folks are not on the table. The talk is teams and venues. How many of these dedicated people who have worked at the top level of motorsport - will land on both feet. That is a real question that I hope is not lost in the big picture, and forgoten with time.

A perfect example is the safety team. I took the tour in Toronto. Amazing mobile Medical Center, but that is just the stuff you see. That team is 24 guys who are each paramedic AND firefighter certified, with an average of 14 years working for CART/ChampCar. Drs Pinderski and Timms have each worked with CART/ChampCar for over 15 years, and along with Dr Trammel ( IRL and ChampCar orthopedic consultant) are the most experienced trackside race physicians in the world. The CART/Champcar medical/safety team has elevated the level of care in motorsports and the safety team has set the standard of care. They are committed to continous in-serivice training and self-evaluation. Those guys practice all the time. That is why they are the best. No one notices when things go right. When it goes bad - everyone is glad they are there. I hope the committment to safety seen in CART/ChampCar - from the top down- is carried to the IRL and 'merged" with their program.

If this merger is really a great thing for the sport - it will be because ALL the best operations people - end up on the same team.

[cartpix]

Right on Brother! I have had the great fortune to meet many of those folks and they are absolute professionals. They are the most experienced people in the world at what they do. That is the real tragedy of the merger - that these folks are not on the table. The talk is teams and venues. How many of these dedicated people who have worked at the top level of motorsport - will land on both feet. That is a real question that I hope is not lost in the big picture, and forgoten with time.

A perfect example is the safety team. I took the tour in Toronto. Amazing mobile Medical Center, but that is just the stuff you see. That team is 24 guys who are each paramedic AND firefighter certified, with an average of 14 years working for CART/ChampCar. Drs Pinderski and Timms have each worked with CART/ChampCar for over 15 years, and along with Dr Trammel ( IRL and ChampCar orthopedic consultant) are the most experienced trackside race physicians in the world. The CART/Champcar medical/safety team has elevated the level of care in motorsports and the safety team has set the standard of care. They are committed to continous in-serivice training and self-evaluation. Those guys practice all the time. That is why they are the best. No one notices when things go right. When it goes bad - everyone is glad they are there. I hope the committment to safety seen in CART/ChampCar - from the top down- is carried to the IRL and 'merged" with their program.

If this merger is really a great thing for the sport - it will be because ALL the best operations people - end up on the same team.

I agree. I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Timm, last year, at Portland. Real nice guy. He gave me the tour of the mobile medical center & introduced me to Dr. Pinderski. The place is literally a mobile hospital. He told me they treat everything from simple cuts & bruises to full on traumas. He said if there was an injury car crash, outside the track & they couldn't get them to a hospital, near by, they'd could receive the patients & patch them up, there. They even have the facilities to deliver babies.

On a couple other occations, I ran into Dr. Timms & he remembered me, even though I didn't remember him, at San Jose (he was in a firesuit, in the rapid responce SUV, so he was out of place). A hand shake, a smile, & a how ya doin' Jeff, which he really was interested in the answer.

Top notch operation, in all respects. I would think it would be an asset coveted by the IRL. IIRC, it was one of the things TG wanted to cherry pick, at the trial.

Jeff

[dataman1]

Jeff & Sandfly,

While I agree that the medical / safety team were first notch and number one in my book, these guys will still be employed in their normal jobs.

I don't want to loose site of those 50 or so staff people at CCWS headquarters that could be totally out of a job in a short period. There are truck drivers, mechanics, technical staff, PR, marketing, sales, promoter relations, accounting, operations, etc.. If a company in central Indiana was to announce they were closing their doors and loosing 50 jobs it would make front page news, headliner stuff on TV. IMO, I doubt growth in open wheel racing will bring 50 jobs to Indy for many years to come.

[Sandfly]

Jeff & Sandfly,

While I agree that the medical / safety team were first notch and number one in my book, these guys will still be employed in their normal jobs.

I don't want to loose site of those 50 or so staff people at CCWS headquarters that could be totally out of a job in a short period. There are truck drivers, mechanics, technical staff, PR, marketing, sales, promoter relations, accounting, operations, etc.. If a company in central Indiana was to announce they were closing their doors and loosing 50 jobs it would make front page news, headliner stuff on TV. IMO, I doubt growth in open wheel racing will bring 50 jobs to Indy for many years to come.


FWIW, this is sure to be a bad time for lots of very committed, experienced folks in the racing business. They are all very proffessional people who have put on the show without fail throughout the history of CART and Champ Car.
( Don't even start on Texas or I'll tell you the story! :) )

Hopefully many of these people will find a place in the new "expanded" series, though I am sure they have a competent staff already in place in most areas.

The names you mention are just the start - and I could add a few that I have met along the way. We can only hope that the details of this deal will reveal a plan to insure that the talents of all these folks are not lost.

[nigelred5]

Jeff & Sandfly,

While I agree that the medical / safety team were first notch and number one in my book, these guys will still be employed in their normal jobs.

I don't want to loose site of those 50 or so staff people at CCWS headquarters that could be totally out of a job in a short period. There are truck drivers, mechanics, technical staff, PR, marketing, sales, promoter relations, accounting, operations, etc.. If a company in central Indiana was to announce they were closing their doors and loosing 50 jobs it would make front page news, headliner stuff on TV. IMO, I doubt growth in open wheel racing will bring 50 jobs to Indy for many years to come.


The thing is, many of those people like mechanics, truck drivers, accountants, etc, can find jobs in other industries, those type of positions tend to be highly mobile anyway. A truck driver with a good CDL record should be able to find a new job in a matter of hours. The CCWS PR, marketing and sales people, well, maybe they should have been considering another industry anyway.(kiddin!!).
Unemployment sucks for anyone, but it's not the end of the world. The companies wife and brother work for have both laid off over 5000 people in the last couple of months thanks to the sub prime fiasco.

It may not being new jobs immediately, however lets hope for those of you that do work in the industry, that it will stabilize the ones that still exist. The route Champcar was heading overseas with it's venues was not going to lend itself to CCWS teams remaining in INDY. The tradtional heart of open wheel in this continent IS Indy, so hopefully the consolidation they are working on will at least stop the bleeding and give the little guys some peace of mind they haven't likely enjoyed in a long time and stabilize the industry in the midwest and elsewhere.

In today's economy, I'm finding REAL choice of product is an increasingly hard thing to come by.

[indycool]

A melding of these two series is going to change things for a lot of people. But what did it do 12 years ago when CART supporters complained about the IRL? It changed things for a lot of people.

I've changed jobs before and I presume most other people have, too. Sometimes it's not fun (like getting fired, like the doctors on the safety team did when CC took over or a couple longtime members of the tech committee). Sometimes it's a little scary if you don't have a change pending and get "caught" by something like this. Sometimes it's exciting if you're moving up. But life goes on.

This is not to say that I'm unfeeling about people like Kampy, Nicole, Kathy, Denise and some of the other folks mentioned. But they're good ones and they'll land on their feet in some form.

[Ruben Barrios]

"( Don't even start on Texas or I'll tell you the story! )"

Please do tell!!

[nigelred5]

Would you rather attend:

Houston or Kansas? Neither??? Though I do have relatives and free R&B in Houston.
Laguna Seca or Infinion? Surely you jest ;)
Iowa or Cleveland? I love eating corn on the cob and all, but, c'mon!!
Toronto or Watkins Glen? Can we accommodate both by dropping Mid Ohio? HERE HERE!! Personally, and I have never been to M-O, I DOON'T like watching races from there and I don't like the track layout. The Glen is a vastly better track

Road America vs Kentucky? Brats and Beer beats out Jim Beam any day in my book.

I like road racing, street racing, ovals should be minimal. SORRY, but we're gonna have to face reality with that one. Ovals will constitute AT LEAST 50% of the schedule, as it did throughout the 80's and early 90's with CART.



:crazy: , isn't it?

[garyshell]

Personally, and I have never been to M-O, I DOON'T like watching races from there and I don't like the track layout.

Come spend a day with me there and I bet I can change your mind. It's a beautiful place and the end of the back straight and susbsequent esses have to be experienced first hand. And the old wooden floored walkover bridges are a GAS!!!! I love taking first timers over one of them right after a full course yellow. Even folks who have been going to races for years get wide eyed and simply giddy when the cars fly past just a few feet underneath your feet.

I will readily admit, I am biased. It's my "home" track, and I have been going there since 1967.

Gary

[indycool]

Houston or Kansas? Big oval that sells out vs. all the idiosyncracies and expense of a temporary street course?

Laguna Seca or Infineon? Laguna Seca is a track rental and is happy it's out from under a previous contract that cost it a lot of money. Infineon pays a sanction fee, and quite frankly, promotes better in SF.

Iowa or Cleveland? Again, finances. Iowa packed the place with some SROs. Cleveland is a neat airport course but they can't and don't build enough seats there to make the nut and has had seven different promoters try it.

Toronto and Watkins Glen? Toronto is a great major Canadian market. Financially, it's suspect with Molson gone. The Glen is the great old American road course and it pays a sanction fee. Tossup that could be fixed and both done in '09.

Road America vs. Kentucky? Road America is a track rental. Kentucky pays a sanction fee and draws very well.

Like it or not, finances are going to be a big part of the ballgame for the future. Like it or not, ovals are going to be part of the ballgame in the future.

EDIT: Agree on Mid-Ohio, Gary. Neat place, and Mansfield is a neat smaller town but M-O draws from both Cleveland and Columbus. Pook picked Cleveland over Mid-Ohio and ran Mid-Ohio off in the last days of CART and it's great to see it back on the schedule with Honda sponsorship.

[bblocker68]

If Tony George, Honda, Kevin Kalkhoven and Jerry Forsythe had been able to work out an eleventh-hour deal to make a merger happen there would have been a large number of seriously injured entities from spurned Champ Car tracks to drivers whose personal sponsorship deals were based on foreign races. There would also have been a tremendous amount of disgruntlement from the small Champ Car teams who would have had little time or resources to properly prepare themselves to go racing with a new car/engine package and from the smaller IRL teams who would have found themselves blown off by the better Champ Car teams and reduced to roles as even more marginal players. And too, a merger may also have presaged the ultimate destruction of Cosworth, one of racing's most historic and accomplished engine builders--although that sad occurence may yet happen. - Kirby

Gordon sort of puts things into better perspective. While folks are pleased with the thought of a unified open wheel series, the situation begs some thought be dedicated to the impact this will have if done too hastily and desregard the legacy supporters of the past and present.

Tony George continues to force feed us the WWF version of open wheel, the absolute worst version of a spec open wheel series in existence. The DP01 and proposed new Lola were refreshing. The DP09 version of Panoz looks very accommodating for 2009. Instead we have to watch ugly IRL cars. I guess I'll be watching more ALMS 2008 and hope F1 comes back to Long Beach in 2010.

Would you rather attend:

Houston or Kansas?
Laguna Seca or Infinion?
Iowa or Cleveland?
Toronto or Watkins Glen? Can we accommodate both by dropping Mid Ohio?
Road America vs Kentucky?

I like road racing, street racing, ovals should be minimal.

Now that I see the schedule. I cant say that I prefer all of the CC races. If it were up to me, I'd go with:

Kansas. Houston was almost as tight as San Jose. San Jose was bad for racing, period.
Laguna Seca, but Infineon is close.
Cleveland. Cleveland rocks.
Watkins Glen. Beautiful track with way, way more history for open wheel cars.
Road America, no brainer.

[Sandfly]

Now that I see the schedule. I cant say that I prefer all of the CC races. If it were up to me, I'd go with:

Kansas. Houston was almost as tight as San Jose. San Jose was bad for racing, period.
Laguna Seca, but Infineon is close.
Cleveland. Cleveland rocks.
Watkins Glen. Beautiful track with way, way more history for open wheel cars.
Road America, no brainer.


Did you ever go to San Jose? It was one of the BEST street races!! The last race there was one of the most competitive races ever. The place was packed - ten deep at the fences - and the setting with the city and parks around the track was awesome. It may not have come across on TV - but it was one of the best -- to be there!

[indycool]

Sandfly, how come it's not there any more then?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I feel for those losing their jobs, but it isn't like they didn't see the warning signs the last two years. They will manage. People with talent always end up with something and it is sad; but as someone who has been laid off for someone's warped agenda before, you don't have to be in racing to be screwed.

As for Toronto being dumped, it is merely a lack of time that has messed this up. That, and as IC alluded to, a lack of a real title sponsor. Steelback's sponsorship was part of the D'Angelo jock sniffing plan and he damn near bankrupted his company and Steelback brewery before he was deposed. In short, they didn't have the cash for the promotions he was doing, and it wasn't just the Toronto GP.

Toronto is a victim of not enough time to move the dates, get through the red tape and to get a sponsor. I can live with it if it is back on the 09 sched. That said, if the IRL doesn't come back, they can forget me forever. It is real simple. Toronto is the 5th biggest market in North America, and there was a race here since the 80's. They would be idiots to not come back, and I can tell you that the city will miss the race this year. That said, if 09 comes and the race isn't back, the fans will go to ALMS at Mosport, or up to Montreal for the NASCAR weekend, and life will go on. I can tell you that not a huge amount go to the IRL event in the Glen from Toronto, and I suspect they wont start now. You cant take something away from fans who supported the race for 30 years and expect to keep them. One year, with a good PR spin will allow them to get away with dumping the event this year. Better see the boys in 09 though or you can write off Toronto.

[SoTex]

[b][i]
Would you rather attend:

Houston or Kansas?
Laguna Seca or Infinion?
Iowa or Cleveland?
Toronto or Watkins Glen? Can we accommodate both by dropping Mid Ohio?
Road America vs Kentucky?

I like road racing, street racing, ovals should be minimal.

The IRL is mostly an oval series. They won the war and will dictate to everyone what will be watched. I doubt seriously that many of CCWS's street/oval events will make any future IRL calendars.

Did you ever go to San Jose? It was one of the BEST street races!! The last race there was one of the most competitive races ever. The place was packed - ten deep at the fences - and the setting with the city and parks around the track was awesome. It may not have come across on TV - but it was one of the best -- to be there!

An awful track IMHO. I was there for the last two years. Poor washboard track surface, even after it was fixed up. All 90-degree corners. Few picturesque viewing angles. And even more catchfencing than Toronto.

I for one will not miss it (except for the Starbucks just behind the pits!).

[weeflyonthewall]

The IRL is mostly an oval series. They won the war and will dictate to everyone what will be watched. I doubt seriously that many of CCWS's street/oval events will make any future IRL calendars.

Hasn't the IRL been adding non-oval racing to their calendar for the past few years? St. Pete's, Detroit, Sear Point? Isn't there enough proof that there's not as much interest in open wheel oval racing as the old timers claim? It's a crying shame if we lose Road America, Cleveland, and Toronto.

[indycool]

weefly, yes, the IRL has been adding road courses and street course VERY carefully. And I'm sure it would like to add Michigan and Phoenix when ISC realizes it's going to need to build something else at those tracks besides NASCAR in order to maximize profits.

But another thing the IRL, IMO, will NOT do, is self-promote, co-promote or rent tracks. Road America went out as a track rental. Toronto and Cleveland are money losers. Toronto is a good market, though, and may find its way back on the schedule for '09 for a try, but it MUST gain sponsorship to be solvent. Cleveland has gone through a bunch of promoters and none have made money. With Lanigan's connections to the Speedway and IRL, and if more sponsors come on board now that it's one series and Cleveland can collar some support there, it's, I suppose, possible.

[garyshell]

Hasn't the IRL been adding non-oval racing to their calendar for the past few years? St. Pete's, Detroit, Sear Point? Isn't there enough proof that there's not as much interest in open wheel oval racing as the old timers claim? It's a crying shame if we lose Road America, Cleveland, and Toronto.


I think "...king George" came to the realization that people wanted to see a diverse series. I don't think it was "there's not as much interest in open wheel oval racing as the old timers claim". It was the ALL oval series that folks grew weary of.

Gary

[Easy Drifter]

If Toronto doesn't come back next year there is still Mosport, with ALMS in Aug. It would take some juggling and hopefully no chicanes. Maybe they will finally get Highway 407 built as it will be close to the track. It was planned in the late 50's!

[pits4me]

I think "...king George" came to the realization that people wanted to see a diverse series. I don't think it was "there's not as much interest in open wheel oval racing as the old timers claim". It was the ALL oval series that folks grew weary of.

Gary

That and the flying aspects. I'd like to see if the DP01 with an airbox avoids airborne excursions.

[indycool]

pits4, the airborne problem, as it was, was fixed several years ago from an aerodynamic standpoint. Running over wheels, somebody is going to flip, period.

Gary, I disagree. When he started the IRL, TG was questioned about road courses and he said possibly in the future, but not in the immediate future. The first two road courses that he scheduled were Infineon and The Glen, and I think the primary reason was to add events and add them where CART had not raced before (although at The Glen, CART ran 25 years ago). As far as St. Pete goes, AGR Promotions with Honda as a sponsor made it a solid event to schedule. Honda sponsoring Mid-Ohio made it feasible for Michelle Trueman to book a date and was natural for Honda, which has a nearby plant. Detroit is a deal Penske worked for charity in that community and if the numbers of sponsorship dollars I've heard he was able to generate up there are true, that event is solid.

At the same time, ISC was screwing up Phoenix by moving the highly successful Copper World Classic and IRL races around schedule-wise (an effing Saturday and few realized it?) and Michigan waffled its way out of a date.

IMO, the IRL didn't pick up road and street races that were destined to be losers.

[ezhop7]

The main thing I would like to see is a path for American kids to get to the IRL to compete in the Indy 500. Not the path of buying a ride, but like Sam Hornish did. You guys keep missing the main reason why NASCAR kicks butt. Its the drivers. If the average American joe can't relate to Simon Pagenaud or Vito Mera. Also real race car drivers would make the series better...AJ FOYT IV, Enrique Bernoldi,Sarah Fisher and Franck Perera (are just backmarkers) I believe Sam Schmidt has better talent on his IPS team. Finally I think the Indycar series should focus on cost containment methods . The cost should not be prohibitive that new teams can't enter the series. Bottomline the series much have a lower entry cost base than NASCAR NATIONWIDE series in order to grow and make sponsorship affordable. Just my 50cents. I'll let you guys get back to arguing over what races are on the 2009 schedule because the 2008 season will be oval heavy...I believe Tony paid the Champ Car series owners hush money.