Hold everything .... !

[SoCalPVguy]

Maybe not such a done deal after all.

With CCWS there is ALWAYS a squall for the lull and this time it looks like GF is causing it. These guys have blown every chance up to now and I hope this isn't true that they are blowing another one...

AR! reports...

UPDATE #14 ... Hearing the merger announcement may come Thursday. However, other AutoRacing1.com sources told us a few minutes ago that Forsythe just pulled the plug on the merger. This has not been confirmed yet, so do not take it as gospel.

Geeze what next ?

[anthonyvop]

Could it be we are reaching a Tipping point in Open Wheel Racing in North America?

Could it be the Gerry F. and Paul G. Have realized that Champ Car has the upper hand.

Despite what RM, Oreo and the other "Indy-Centric" racing press are reporting it is the IRL that is in trouble. Falling Attendence, Sponsor Bailing and only 13 cars confirmed for the start of the season.

Even the most ardent of IRL fans would have to admit that if you took away the Indy 500 there would be no series. And the 500 is becoming more irrelevant with each passing year. Both series have crappy ratings but at least Champ Car has paying attendees. Champ Car has also realized that Open Wheel Oval racing is a dying sport. The Numbers Don't Lie.

The Motorsports Press have been reporting for 2 weeks that Champ Car is done. "Tommorrow, Friday, Tuesday, Thursday." "The Deal is done." Yet the Champ Car Offices are still open. Teams are STILL working on their Panoz Chassis. Nobody is buying Dallaras.

[ChaimWitz]

There has been an ongoing frantic effort organized by the usual delusional suspects from ****wagon.com to prolong the split and prevent OWRS from meeting the fate it deserves. Perhaps the CCF wave of hate has found temporary traction and then again, perhaps not. Regardless, a fan named Paper and his un-Amigo confidant, Paulie G-String are not the ones I would run to for leadership in American open wheel racing. Also remember that all this is anything but a "merger" in the first place so the AR1 story was wrong on that score to begin with. Time will tell how this plays out but as usual, I will bet against Paulie. He is his own worst enemy and he usually does himself in before anyone else needs to bother lifting a finger. Yawn.

[OWFan19]

It wouldnt suprise me if GF or someone tried to keep this going. I think it would be tough with only a few cars on the track, but truth is stranger than fiction. Just want some answers from someone.

[Sandfly]

It really is hard for you guys to understand that not eveyone thinks the IRL is the answer or that the I-500 is the "saving race".

[roger dodger]

Maybe not such a done deal after all.

With CCWS there is ALWAYS a squall for the lull and this time it looks like GF is causing it. These guys have blown every chance up to now and I hope this isn't true that they are blowing another one...

AR! reports...

UPDATE #14 ... Hearing the merger announcement may come Thursday. However, other AutoRacing1.com sources told us a few minutes ago that Forsythe just pulled the plug on the merger. This has not been confirmed yet, so do not take it as gospel.

Geeze what next ?

They, with their egos, can try whatever they want to keep CC alive. The bottom line is that too few people like OW in America right now, so anything the egos try will result in .8 ratings, subsidized races and the like. The only chance OW has is to come together (no matter how that happens) and hope that it catches on with Americans on some level. Otherwise it will continue to be a long slow death with the egos spending a ton of their own (hard earned) money. But that's just mho.

[jimispeed]

It really is hard for you guys to understand that not eveyone thinks the IRL is the answer or that the I-500 is the "saving race".

I believe Champcar should continue, and force a fair merge with TG. Champcar certainly has some beautiful cars, ans tracks!! Develop the DP01 for oval, and complete the series by an equal merge.......

More time would produce a better quality product for open wheel on all sides of racing. From the cars, to the tracks and the overall atmosphere.

Don't you all go to the races? If you do, then you must know what I'm talking about!!!

But, I know, it's better to give it away right????

[ChaimWitz]

I believe Champcar should continue, and force a fair merge with TG. Champcar certainly has some beautiful cars, ans tracks!! Develop the DP01 for oval, and complete the series by an equal merge.......

More time would produce a better quality product for open wheel on all sides of racing.

But, I know, it's better to give it away right????

Actually, it is better to live in reality and what you have written suggests you don't.

[jimispeed]

Actually, it is better to live in reality and what you have written suggests you don't.


Sounds to me like TG is in trouble as well!! So why does Champcar have to give up??

[ChaimWitz]

Sounds to me like TG is in trouble as well!! So why does Champcar have to give up??

Actually TG isn't in trouble. He has proven he is committed to the sport and the Amigos have done the opposite. He also has enough income from IMS the keep on ticking and is willing to subsuidize the cars and teams coming over from the CCWS.

Doesn't it occur to you and your pals on ****wagon.com that he can now easily obtain a full field in for the 2008 season thanks to the foolish mistakes of the Amigos? You and Sanguin and Clydekart (are you all the same guy?) like to point at the "13 cars" that the IRL has currently confirmed (actually, I hear it is 15). Common sense indicates that, with the likely addition of Walker, NHL and PVK that the probably have 18-21 cars and are not "in trouble". Honda's direct involvement it the unification efforts suggests that they are sticking with the IRL and the recent implosion of whatever credibility was left for the Amigos leads rational folks to conclude that TG has already won the war.

Perhaps you should go back to ****wagon.com and join in today's pathetic and delusional prayer session to Gerry and Paulie G-String led by Paper and the high priests of deception.

[SoCalPVguy]

More chaos... AR1 reports (and I am sorry if this is protected material)...

UPDATE #15 The wild rumors on this merger continue today. According to AutoRacing1.com sources, and as we reported about 8 hours ago, Gerald Forsythe pulled out of the merger deal last night. He and Paul Gentilozzi are trying to rally enough cars to go it alone as Champ Car. We hear that Kevin Kalkhoven and Dan Pettit are moving on to the IRL. We hear that an approach from Gentilozzi to Panoz to buy in and save the contract is waiting a reply. We also hear that Forsythe may be trying to prevent the Long Beach race from falling in the hands of the IRL.

There is an old fable wherby two people fight over an object, and during the fight, the object is lost, and neither party ends up with it.

So goes open wheel racing.

[pits4me]

Actually TG isn't in trouble. He has proven he is committed to the sport and the Amigos have done the opposite. He also has enough income from IMS the keep on ticking and is willing to subsuidize the cars and teams coming over from the CCWS.

Doesn't it occur to you and your pals on ****wagon.com that he can now easily obtain a full field in for the 2008 season thanks to the foolish mistakes of the Amigos? You and Sanguin and Clydekart (are you all the same guy?) like to point at the "13 cars" that the IRL has currently confirmed (actually, I hear it is 15). Common sense indicates that, with the likely addition of Walker, NHL and PVK that the probably have 18-21 cars and are not "in trouble". Honda's direct involvement it the unification efforts suggests that they are sticking with the IRL and the recent implosion of whatever credibility was left for the Amigos leads rational folks to conclude that TG has already won the war.

Perhaps you should go back to ****wagon.com and join in today's pathetic and delusional prayer session to Gerry and Paulie G-String led by Paper and the high priests of deception.

Speaking of dilusional, since when was TG's solution in the best interest of a global open wheel audience?

GF and KK have accompished more strategically for open wheel in the last few years than TG has done in a decade.

If Tony George, Honda, Kevin Kalkhoven and Jerry Forsythe had been able to work out an eleventh-hour deal to make a merger happen there would have been a large number of seriously injured entities from spurned Champ Car tracks to drivers whose personal sponsorship deals were based on foreign races. There would also have been a tremendous amount of disgruntlement from the small Champ Car teams who would have had little time or resources to properly prepare themselves to go racing with a new car/engine package and from the smaller IRL teams who would have found themselves blown off by the better Champ Car teams and reduced to roles as even more marginal players. And too, a merger may also have presaged the ultimate destruction of Cosworth, one of racing's most historic and accomplished engine builders--although that sad occurence may yet happen. Gordon Kirby - Feb. 11, 2008

[F1boat]

GF might be right to himself - while in CCWS he is a top team and after N/H/L leaves his team might be the best - in a unified series he will be a grid-filler.
What pathetic little man. His insult to the old CART legacy might continue to live for several series, but nobody will watch it.
Indy Car (and not IRL) forever!

[ChaimWitz]

Speaking of deliusional, what are you smokin' Pits4me? The ineptitude of the Amigos has created the current mess. There has only been strategery from these clowns. They had no real plan only a real scam. They were found out at Sebring in 2007 and it has be slow swirling slide down the toilet bowl drain since then.

So, are you really going to be one of those tedious old men wearing an orange and black shirt railing on about something nobody care about but you and the 406 other fanatics who will still go to a certain hate site for daily affirmations?

One series is the only way forward and reality dictates that it won't be the train wreck now known as ChampCar. Get used to it.

[bennybigb]

Hey ChaimWitz,

Why are you such a jerk?

Why don't you let people share their opinion without calling them delusional?

ChampCar fans have the right to hope ChampCar stays in business, but you do not have the right to degrade everyone that does not agree with you.

Right now ChampCar and the IRL are still separate, as are the forums, so please go back to the IRL forum to discuss how delusional the ChampCar fans are.

[PTCrash3]

Speaking of deliusional, what are you smokin' Pits4me? The ineptitude of the Amigos has created the current mess. There has only been strategery from these clowns. They had no real plan only a real scam. They were found out at Sebring in 2007 and it has be slow swirling slide down the toilet bowl drain since then.

So, are you really going to be one of those tedious old men wearing an orange and black shirt railing on about something nobody care about but you and the 406 other fanatics who will still go to a certain hate site for daily affirmations?

One series is the only way forward and reality dictates that it won't be the train wreck now known as ChampCar. Get used to it.

You're full of ****, buddy.

[PTCrash3]

Hey ChaimWitz,

Why are you such a jerk?

Why don't you let people share their opinion without calling them delusional?

ChampCar fans have the right to hope ChampCar stays in business, but you do not have the right to degrade everyone that does not agree with you.

Right now ChampCar and the IRL are still separate, as are the forums, so please go back to the IRL forum to discuss how delusional the ChampCar fans are.

Why would he want to go back there? Only 15 people online in that forum, 181 here. Pretty much a good ratio of CC fans to IRL "fans"; 12:1.

[heelntoe]

Hey ChaimWitz,

Why are you such a jerk?

Why don't you let people share their opinion without calling them delusional?

ChampCar fans have the right to hope ChampCar stays in business, but you do not have the right to degrade everyone that does not agree with you.

Right now ChampCar and the IRL are still separate, as are the forums, so please go back to the IRL forum to discuss how delusional the ChampCar fans are.

Benny, Pits has often thrown personal attacks in the past as I've received some myself. And frankly, Chaimwitz's post is simply his expressing his opinion as a former CCWS fan that had an involvement with the Amigos as i did. And do yourself a favor during these times where CCWS is about to be flushed...don't be telling people where to go to express themselves about the reality of what's coming...IMO, of course.

[heelntoe]

You're full of ****, buddy.

Ahh, another visitor from that dark place! Dude, go find somewhere else to throw the attacks as Starter will be reaching out to you shortly. And just so we're clear, Chaimwitz is right on the money and the press conference will confirm that quite clearly...IMO, of course :)

[ChaimWitz]

Fanatics, please chill.

I am anything but an IRLista. I am a realist. I also was a fan of CART and someone who spent my entire professional life trying to build this sport. I also got to see the Amigos (you so love) in action and as a result, I know better when the hate wave crests here from ****wagon.com.

In my direct personal experience and in the harsh light of reality, the Fab Four are the ones who spew BS and they are the ones who have led the sport to this sad, pathetic and desperate place. Sure TG is responsible for the split. A pox on him for that but this mess must end now regardless, even if he is in control.

I know you believe that all hope is lost if TG wins. But I see it differently. I think that all hope is lost for those who hate TG and want to see him punished. That seems to cover several posters here on this forum so good luck with that kiddies! Recent history has proven you can't build a real business around hate. Spite is not something that attracts. It repels.

This last minute hate barrage lead by a Paper tiger will fail as surely as the mythical five year plan did.

I make my living in this sport. I say put the liars, hobby boys and haters on the last bus to nowhere and let's get back to building the sport.

[heelntoe]

Fanatics, please chill.

I am anything but an IRLista. I am a realist. I also was a fan of CART and someone who spent my entire professional life trying to build this sport. I also got to see the Amigos (you so love) in action and as a result, I know better when the hate wave crests here from ****wagon.com.

In my direct personal experience and in the harsh light of reality, the Fab Four are the ones who spew BS and they are the ones who have led the sport to this sad, pathetic and desperate place. Sure TG is responsible for the split. A pox on him for that but this mess must end now regardless, even if he is in control.

I know you believe that all hope is lost if TG wins. But I see it differently. I think that all hope is lost for those who hate TG and want to see him punished. That seems to cover several posters here on this forum so good luck with that kiddies! Recent history has proven you can't build a real business around hate. Spite is not something that attracts. It repels.

This last minute hate barrage lead by a Paper tiger will fail as surely as the mythical five year plan did.

I make my living in this sport. I say put the liars, hobby boys and haters on the last bus to nowhere and let's get back to building the sport.

Amen and then some!!!

[SoCalPVguy]

You're full of ****, buddy.

Wow. very articulate. I am assuming by the time you see this you will have already received a nasty note from the moderator (I got one once for calling somebody a 'delusional dude', and I thought I was just being alliterative).

Thank you for your comment regarding the upcoming consolidation of open wheel racing. You comment has been very helpful and clarative. Next time don't be a poppinjay...

[nigelred5]

So much of all that is wrong with the way Champcar has been run sounds like it is straight out of the SCCA book of problems. Some really good guys in it for the love of the sport, but polluted by just enough sorry A-holes with too many crazy opinions and cash to eff everything up. Wonder where that came from?? The sport needs a single leader. Like the most obvious one or not, that is what the sport needs. Leadership by committee does not work in sports.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

So much of all that is wrong with the way Champcar has been run sounds like it is straight out of the SCCA book of problems. Some really good guys in it for the love of the sport, but polluted by just enough sorry A-holes with too many crazy opinions and cash to eff everything up. Wonder where that came from?? The sport needs a single leader. Like the most obvious one or not, that is what the sport needs. Leadership by committee does not work in sports.

Correction! Leadership by committee does not work period.

[Ruben Barrios]

I have always loved Champcar, not so the people who have made a point in desecrating it...

If you choose to worship the people who have pissed away the greatest thing just because they say they are saving it, then good luck... I rather use my head...

They have put the fans in a situation where there are only two alternatives TG or GF & Company... good luck with both of those situations... Good luck helping these two lunatics destroy what is left of it...

I rather keep my memories of the real Elvis, obviously you guys rather see Vegas Elvis farting aroung the stage just to keep him alive...

GF and PG are the promoters who would have booked Elvis in a Mall just to continue his "legacy"...

Think about that...

[PTCrash3]

Wow. very articulate. I am assuming by the time you see this you will have already received a nasty note from the moderator (I got one once for calling somebody a 'delusional dude', and I thought I was just being alliterative).

Thank you for your comment regarding the upcoming consolidation of open wheel racing. You comment has been very helpful and clarative. Next time don't be a poppinjay...

One doesn't need to be articulate when the truth is so simple.

It may be true that the merger will come to pass - fine with me. Just don't come on here spilling a bunch of BS about how messed up Champ Car is, or was. Open Wheel was destroyed by the IRL, period. To blame the guys who tried to save it is nonsense.

[heelntoe]

One doesn't need to be articulate when the truth is so simple.

It may be true that the merger will come to pass - fine with me. Just don't come on here spilling a bunch of BS about how messed up Champ Car is, or was. Open Wheel was destroyed by the IRL, period. To blame the guys who tried to save it is nonsense.

Not gonna' get into the TG ruined everything in OW as that's an old, tired and too often argued topic from every angle. However, Champcar could not have been more messed up, so your notion of that being BS is, well, BS. Most people don't blame the Amigos for their intent, they blame them for the endless string of idiotic decisions, pr blunders, cancelled races, etc. they carried out after buying CART. Who was it in the industry (can't remember right now) that called them the "laughing stock" of motorsports?

Understand this PT, Champcar is where it's at right now because of the way it was mismanaged into the ground, not because of TG or the IRL.

[ChaimWitz]

Not gonna' get into the TG ruined everything in OW as that's an old, tired and too often argued topic from every angle. However, Champcar could not have been more messed up, so your notion of that being BS is, well, BS. Most people don't blame the Amigos for their intent, they blame them for the endless string of idiotic decisions, pr blunders, cancelled races, etc. they carried out after buying CART. Who was it in the industry (can't remember right now) that called them the "laughing stock" of motorsports?

Understand this PT, Champcar is where it's at right now because of the way it was mismanaged into the ground, not because of TG or the IRL.

Amen to that!

[SoCalPVguy]

Open Wheel was destroyed by the IRL, period.

Dude you are not a businessperson yourself because if you had to run and market any kind of business you would quickly see that CART first, then CCWS, had every chance to sieze the moment and bury the IRL but could not do so for two reasons: 1) They made all the wrong moves and I do mean "all", and 2) They did NOT have the Indy 500. It was inevitable.

Bittersweet, as I always liked CART but was frustrated that the Amigos mismanaged the successor, CCWS, in every way (and I emphasize "every") from poor marketing, bad schedules, no sponsorship, bad TV arrangments, no name ride buying drivers, no ovals, lousy locations, etc...

Please work your way through the five phases of grief (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance) and support the new effort - it cannot be any worse that what we've gone through the past 12 years.

[bblocker68]

We drink beer in here, not Kool Aid. I hate TG as much as the next guy. But to say he was single-handedly resposible for CC's demise is just plain laughable to me.

It also amuses me to see when people have been in here for a total of 10 posts and tries to tell people about their rights.............

Argue right or dont argue at all!!!!!!! :)

[garyshell]

Dude you are not a businessperson yourself because if you had to run and market any kind of business you would quickly see that CART first, then CCWS, had every chance to seize the moment and bury the IRL but could not do so for two reasons: 1) They made all the wrong moves and I do mean "all", and 2) They did NOT have the Indy 500. It was inevitable.

Lets be very clear about something here. If they could not seize the moment because they did not have the Indy 500, (and I agree with that statement) then they never had a chance to seize the moment. You can't cut that cookie both ways. And if they could not have the Indy 500 because of the creation of the IRL, then I think it can safely be said that the root cause of the downfall of CART and ChampCar was the creation of the IRL.

Now before all of you jump all over me, yes I agree there were huge miss steps and stupid moves by BOTH ChampCar and CART before it. I've said so before here. But I don't for a moment think that even if they had made all the right moves they ever would have been able to overcome the lack of the INDY 500 on the schedule. I thought this from day one of the split until today. My only hope all these years was that ChampCar or CART could outlast "...king George" in the stare down contest. They didn't. And they didn't out last him because of all of the pitiful stupid decisions made by both CART and ChampCar. But it was never about one series being triumphant over the other, it was one being able to outlast the other. Because the trump card was and is a parcel of land at 16th and Georgetown Ave. To me it is really that simple.

Gary

[cartpix]

I can't argue with any of that, Gary.

Jeff

[SoCalPVguy]

Lets be very clear about something here. If they could not seize the moment because they did not have the Indy 500, (and I agree with that statement) then they never had a chance to seize the moment. You can't cut that cookie both ways. And if they could not have the Indy 500 because of the creation of the IRL, then I think it can safely be said that the root cause of the downfall of CART and ChampCar was the creation of the IRL.

Now before all of you jump all over me, yes I agree there were huge miss steps and stupid moves by BOTH ChampCar and CART before it. I've said so before here. But I don't for a moment think that even if they had made all the right moves they ever would have been able to overcome the lack of the INDY 500 on the schedule. I thought this from day one of the split until today. My only hope all these years was that ChampCar or CART could outlast "...king George" in the stare down contest. They didn't. And they didn't out last him because of all of the pitiful stupid decisions made by both CART and ChampCar. But it was never about one series being triumphant over the other, it was one being able to outlast the other. Because the trump card was and is a parcel of land at 16th and Georgetown Ave. To me it is really that simple.

Gary

Beer. Yardhouse. Friday April 18.

[garyshell]

Beer. Yardhouse. Friday April 18.


If only I could, sigh...

I'll be there in spirit. Hey, do they have wifi? If anyone of you planning on going has a laptop with a webcam we could do a Skype conference call and those of us who can't be there in real life colud at least participate virtually.

Gary

[stereokarter]

A last minute pull on the plug. A pox on all their houses.

Don't get me wrong, I was always a CART fan.

But they wouldn't let TG play a part and he simply decided to punish everyone. (True story...there was a meeting in '95 where TG asked for a vote at the CART table and they refused, so he walked out, bristling). The aftermath is still evolving.

This news...of a Non-merger will really screw up the scribes in the general sports media bigtime. They really don't understand it all. Seems to me that A.J. could just have easily done the deal in from the IRL side too.

I'm in Toronto. Attended the very 1st race here which Bobby Rahal won. 60,000 in attendance...oh what a party!

The Canadian races may actually 'lose' money...but the host cities win large.

CCWS better understand that TG, (and he has the bucks to create or destroy what he desires) has the whip hand...so work with it.

Roger Ramjet said that once CART went public the writing was on the wall and he sold all his shares a.s.a.p. It is Dan Gurney that I feel sorry for. A true visionary whose concept brought us all much excitement, joy, and fun.

Nothing lasts forever.

[994ever]

Understand this PT, Champcar is where it's at right now because of the way it was mismanaged into the ground, not because of TG or the IRL.

I'm in total agreement with the fact that these guys didn't do a good job, or even a fair one.

That said, let's not forget what they started with: nothing. I'd suggest that even if the people who picked up CART's assets back five years ago were experienced, astute racing businessmen who had a coherent plan, that there was at best a 50/50 shot that things would not turn out this way.

[PTCrash3]

Not gonna' get into the TG ruined everything in OW as that's an old, tired and too often argued topic from every angle. However, Champcar could not have been more messed up, so your notion of that being BS is, well, BS. Most people don't blame the Amigos for their intent, they blame them for the endless string of idiotic decisions, pr blunders, cancelled races, etc. they carried out after buying CART. Who was it in the industry (can't remember right now) that called them the "laughing stock" of motorsports?

Understand this PT, Champcar is where it's at right now because of the way it was mismanaged into the ground, not because of TG or the IRL.

Did you actually READ my quote? I've never contended CCWS was not mismanaged. I said OPEN WHEEL was ruined by TG.

Anyone who doubts THAT fact doesn't understand business at all. Just go back and look at the cars 10-12 years ago, covered with sponsors. The split, caused by TG, created the situation we are in today.

I will support the series, but I won't support it blindly. If the technology doesn't come up to a reasonable level soon and the racing isn't legit (e.g., giving Danica power steering) Indy/Champ/CART/car will get as much attention from me as I now give to NASCAR; none at all.

db

[PTCrash3]

Lets be very clear about something here. If they could not seize the moment because they did not have the Indy 500, (and I agree with that statement) then they never had a chance to seize the moment. You can't cut that cookie both ways. And if they could not have the Indy 500 because of the creation of the IRL, then I think it can safely be said that the root cause of the downfall of CART and ChampCar was the creation of the IRL.

Now before all of you jump all over me, yes I agree there were huge miss steps and stupid moves by BOTH ChampCar and CART before it. I've said so before here. But I don't for a moment think that even if they had made all the right moves they ever would have been able to overcome the lack of the INDY 500 on the schedule. I thought this from day one of the split until today. My only hope all these years was that ChampCar or CART could outlast "...king George" in the stare down contest. They didn't. And they didn't out last him because of all of the pitiful stupid decisions made by both CART and ChampCar. But it was never about one series being triumphant over the other, it was one being able to outlast the other. Because the trump card was and is a parcel of land at 16th and Georgetown Ave. To me it is really that simple.

Gary

Well, maybe. But that 'parcel of land' is worth about 40% of what it was 10 years ago. Thanks TG.

[tbyars]

Well, maybe. But that 'parcel of land' is worth about 40% of what it was 10 years ago. Thanks TG.

Not according to the Speeday, IN tax rolls. It was recently appraised for over $3,000,000,000.00. If you're not familiar with 9 zeros, that's Billion, with a "B".

Now, I'd like to see a link to where it was once apprased, according to your comment, at $7,500,000,000.00.

[PTCrash3]

Not according to the Speeday, IN tax rolls. It was recently appraised for over $3,000,000,000.00. If you're not familiar with 9 zeros, that's Billion, with a "B".

Now, I'd like to see a link to where it was once apprased, according to your comment, at $7,500,000,000.00.

Um, I'm not speaking of the land value, I'm speaking of the value of the race. It's lost 60% of it's audience in the last decade+; crowds, sponsors, etc.

That's what I meant.

db

[heelntoe]

I'm in total agreement with the fact that these guys didn't do a good job, or even a fair one.

That said, let's not forget what they started with: nothing. I'd suggest that even if the people who picked up CART's assets back five years ago were experienced, astute racing businessmen who had a coherent plan, that there was at best a 50/50 shot that things would not turn out this way.

994, respectfully, they didn't start with nothing as GF had history, PG had his mouth and KK's money, and a few others including Carl Russo, me and others. These guys were NOT astute "racing businessmen"...by their own admission, they were "businessmen first, racers second". And in GF's case, a troubled/failed investor and businessman in the sport of racing. They never had a coherent plan...in fact, they didn't have a real plan on any level...IMO, of course.

[heelntoe]

Did you actually READ my quote? I've never contended CCWS was not mismanaged. I said OPEN WHEEL was ruined by TG.

Anyone who doubts THAT fact doesn't understand business at all. Just go back and look at the cars 10-12 years ago, covered with sponsors. The split, caused by TG, created the situation we are in today.

I will support the series, but I won't support it blindly. If the technology doesn't come up to a reasonable level soon and the racing isn't legit (e.g., giving Danica power steering) Indy/Champ/CART/car will get as much attention from me as I now give to NASCAR; none at all.

db

Yes, I read your quote and your attack on the poster is what defined you right away. I personally have never been to an IRL race, yet I know Roger P, his kids and many many others in that space to at east have an idea of where they come from. Blaming TG, to me, is a joke, as he decided that he needed to take a particular course to strenghten his position in OW as CART didn't want him to have enough of a voice to make it worth his while. Given he controls the single most important OW race and asset, and given the fact that CART has since gone bankrupt and OWRS/CCWS is about to, I'd say that he's most definitely not the "idiot grandson" so many of you would like to believe.

As far as the Danica steering, etc., i know nothing about that stuff, so I won't comment on it with any credibility. However, I come from IMG, the world's largest sponsor agency, and i can at least say that CCWS is gone and the IRL is the only series with a value to sponsors...period. From a personal perspective, I have a 15 year old girl who cares nothing about this, but she has a boyfriend who plays "warcraft", which is more about why we don't have new fans than anything. Casual fans are interested in other things and with new opportunities every day, it's no wonder OW racing is dropping.

[garyshell]

Well, maybe. But that 'parcel of land' is worth about 40% of what it was 10 years ago. Thanks TG.

It's value is diminished, most of us here will agree with that. (The actual % can be debated ad infinitum.) But, as long as Madison Ave controls the purse strings of racing, it is still the trump card.

Gary

[garyshell]

Not according to the Speeday, IN tax rolls. It was recently appraised for over $3,000,000,000.00. If you're not familiar with 9 zeros, that's Billion, with a "B".

Now, I'd like to see a link to where it was once apprased, according to your comment, at $7,500,000,000.00.


Wow, did you come up with those numbers all by yourself. We REALLY are impressed. Jseesh, as if you didn't know EXACTLY what was being referred to by the "parcel of land" I originally mentioned and what PTCrash3 referenced.

You see it is just crap like this that is hindering the sort of fence mending that has to start now. What possible point did your reply have except to stick your finger in someone's eye? It was obvious what was being referred to, but you had to take the words literally and create some specious argument. To what end? What was the point?

I am in no way defending PTCrash3, I think he is off base. But I just don't see the point of this sort of response.

Gary

[garyshell]

Blaming TG, to me, is a joke, as he decided that he needed to take a particular course to strenghten his position in OW as CART didn't want him to have enough of a voice to make it worth his while.


Oh, please. You make it sound so noble. "...king George" threw a hissy fit because he wasn't given control. He didn't want a voice, he wanted control. Period. I am ready to mend fences and move on to a united series. I am NOT ready to rewrite history to make "...king George" now look like some knight in shining armor.

I have no beef with the rest of your assessment. It is spot on. It is ONLY this bit I have trouble with.

Gary

[tbyars]

Um, I'm not speaking of the land value, I'm speaking of the value of the race. It's lost 60% of it's audience in the last decade+; crowds, sponsors, etc.

That's what I meant.

db

Well, other than the fact that that's NOT what you said ("But that 'parcel of land' is worth about 40% of what it was 10 years ago"), I'm sure you can back that 60% figure up with some quanatitive facts. Actual attendance numbers, speedway revenues for the race, sponsorship revenues, net profits, etc. I'll wait while you get those linked and referenced numbers together for us.

You see, your CW view of the world holds no juice here. You want to make a quantitative statement, be ready to produce some proof.

[garyshell]

Well, other than the fact that that's NOT what you said ("But that 'parcel of land' is worth about 40% of what it was 10 years ago"), I'm sure you can back that 60% figure up with some quanatitive facts. Actual attendance numbers, speedway revenues for the race, sponsorship revenues, net profits, etc. I'll wait while you get those linked and referenced numbers together for us.

You see, your CW view of the world holds no juice here. You want to make a quantitative statement, be ready to produce some proof.

I was the one who referred to it as the "parcel of land". PTCrash3 did attribute a specific percentage reduction, but it was clear that it was in reference MY obtuse reference to the Indy 500 and not the real estate. I am not going to defend or debate the actual number, but I will ask you: do you not think that the value of the Indy 500 has been substantially diminished (in real inflation adjusted dollars) since the split? Anyone with a set of eyeballs can see that the aggregate number of folks through the turnstiles in the month of May has been significantly reduced.

To paraphrase your last sentence. You want to make a specious argument, be ready to defend it.

Gary

[cartpix]

To paraphrase your last sentence. You want to make a specious argument, be ready to defend it.

Gary

With all due respect, Gary, PTCrash3 came up with the 60% loss figure. I believe the providing of proof, is in his court.

Jeff

[garyshell]

With all due respect, Gary, PTCrash3 came up with the 60% loss figure. I believe the providing of proof, is in his court.

Jeff


Jeff,

tbyars and I already had an PM conversation about this. My point to him was that his turning the conversation into one of property value was specious. Clearly the conversation was about the value of the race. My comment was ONLY about that deviation in the conversation.

Having said that, I agree with you and he that the 60% number is in PTCrash3's court. I never suggested otherwise. But as I said, actual % aside, I think we can all see there is/was significant reduction in the value of the race itself. Since most of the revenue from the event is based on or is directly related to eyeballs or butts in seats, I think there is little question that in real, inflation adjusted, dollars there has been a significant impact on the potential bottom line. We can argue the % number till the cows come home, but since we are dealing with a privately held company any such argument is pure speculation.

Gary

[SoCalPVguy]

Property value has absolutely nothing to do with the "value" of the race, rating, attendance, anything at all related to race itself. Property value is strictly related to the value of the land for its highest and best use, and not even really a function of the existing improvements on the site.

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything and even if it was intended as an insult to the IRL for 'devaluing' the Indy 500 (as I suspect it was) it is way off the mark and ought to be dropped as a subject.