what about the USA WRC rallies taken place in '86-'88?

[tmx]

Well it seem there were a short period the WRC was taken place in America according to the statistic, not sure if I am correct. Markku won there in 86 with a S4, then Kankkunen and Biasion in a Lancia group A. It doesn't seem like anyone talk about these events. I for one don't know anything about it. Are there are any footages or memories? Were there any American drivers that received WRC points or gotten a good position?

Anyway, we really need a WRC here in US.

I predict a dead thread.

[DeltaS4]

At the time, the '86 Olympus was very important because it was to decide the championship between Alen and Kankkunen. It's the only reason those two even showed up. But in the end, FISA decided the championship in a boardroom later on.
I have a highlight show of the '86 Olympus on VHS. I also have seen footage from the '87 Olympus in a season review. Alen is extremely pissed because during the first stage, he encounters a civilian driving a Mustang along the road. There is almost a big accident.

[GruppoB]

many would argue that the us doesnt have a suitable fanbase (yet) for a wrc event. id have to agree itd be great to have one here but lets let rally america pick up enough fans that would actualy be interested

i found this on olympus

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hzm0TYC1KHE

[Josti]

Just a lack of interest is my guess, both from competitors and spectators. Toyota pulled out as headsponsor after 1987, and the last WRC edition only saw one works driver entered. They dropped it in favour of Australia.

[BTCC2]

Where abouts in America was it held?

[Sardalense]

Where abouts in America was it held?



Seattle, in the West Coast.

[Mickey T]

well, given the majority of North Americans believe Sony invented rallying and that Colin McRae was a fictitious character like Lara Croft, it was always going to be difficult to make a US WRC round self sustaining.

that apart, the other real issue that hamstrung the event was that, the brands that dominated the championship (with all due respects to Audi) didn't sell cars there.

Lancia didn't sell there at the time (still doesn't - of the Fiat Group brands, only Ferrari and Maserati are there, though Alfa Romeo will return in limited numbers from next year).

Peugeot still doesn't sell there and neither does PSA stablemate Citroen (who had perhaps the most fleeting Group B career of all).

For the rest of the Group B teams, only Ford and Audi had a significant presence in NA at the time, though Audi's NA operation fell apart because of an "unintended acceleration" legal crisis, brought on by 60 Minutes, that never actually ever existed.

Opel was blocked out by internal GM politics, MG-Rover was a bit player at best and only Ford ever had numbers to back up the investment required to move full WRC teams across there.

To be frank, other than Ford and Audi, none of the WRC regulars had the potential to recoup their motorsport investment out of North America, and the rallying scene there was too immature to justify it as well. it didn't have an adequate infrastructure to run it in-house. if pure commen sense was the criteria, it probably still is too immature (but, then, you could successfully argue that about Sardinia and Cyprus and Turkey).

Remember, too, that Lancia was the dominant force in the immediate post Group B (eg, Group A) era, and they'd have had no wish to waste money on NA.

you could argue that the Safari and the Ivory Coast weren't beneficial, either, but Peugeot has traditionally been a strong brand in Africa and the event had a lot of romantic traction in Europe.

At the end of the day, modern top-level motorsport bears little or no fruit for production engineering or manufacturing, so it's a pure marketing exercise. Marketing dollars, then, will always be spent where they might bring a return on investment.

the sums in north america just don't add up.

[FAL]

WRC was in USA and Canada long before then. Press on Regardless and Rideau Lakes?

[Blitzerflitzer]

Were there any American drivers that received WRC points or gotten a good position

Some Stats about the Olympus: http://www.juwra.com/usa_olympus.html

[DeltaS4]

For the rest of the Group B teams, only Ford and Audi had a significant presence in NA at the time

Peugeot sold cars in the USA at the time of all three Olympus WRC rounds (1986-88). They did not withdraw from the U.S. until after the 1991 model year.
At the time of the 1986 round, Audi had withdrawn from the remainder of the '86 season following the Portugal tragedy.
In addition, the '86 Olympus counted towards the Drivers Championship only, which in those days meant that all the works teams stayed away. They were mainly interested in winning the Manufacturers Title, and the Drivers Title was decidedly of secondary importance. As I stated earlier, the only reason Alen and Kankkunen showed up is because they were locked in a close title fight. Even then, Peugeot and Lancia only brought a single car each, rather than their usual 2 or 3-car teams.

In '87 the rally was moved from December to June, and was also made a round of the Manufacturers Championship. For the latter reason, Lancia sent their full 3-car team, and they finished 1-2-3. But the rally itself failed to attract the minimum number of entries to remain a World Championship round, and there was speculation that it would be dropped.
Somehow the Olympus did return for '88, in June again, but the entry numbers were down even more. Lancia sent one works car and several B-team cars, and clinched the Manufacturers Title at this round. But that was the end for the WRC in the USA.

[BDunnell]

The BBC showed highlights of the 1986 event because it was the championship decider, and the stages looked just like the Welsh forests. That event was certainly an interesting historical anomaly, given the fact that its outcome ended up being utterly pointless!

[DeltaS4]

The BBC showed highlights of the 1986 event because it was the championship decider, and the stages looked just like the Welsh forests. That event was certainly an interesting historical anomaly, given the fact that its outcome ended up being utterly pointless!

There was actually some talk at the time saying that FISA kept the championship up in the air on purpose in order to help drum up interest in the Olympus, and ensure at least some participation by the top two teams.
Remember, the offenses happened at San Remo, which took place in mid-October. No reason it couldn't have been cleared up by December.

[RallyCat909]

Hmmm. Its hard being in the shadow of NASCAR here in the US as a motorsport fan. Theres some incredible roads for rallying in the US in just about any of the 50 states. Im biased of course, but at Rally Tennessee, a tarmac rally, theres more than a few irish entrants that have rallied in more than a few rallies in the eastern US, more than 5-10 times that weekend last year, I heard them say, "TN has the best roads, fookin incredible."

[Maui J.]

It has amazed me over the years that the manufacturers haven’t pushed for a WRC event in the US. They want to sell cars and we are talking about the biggest market there is.
The IRC is only 3 years old and already there are events in China and Russia. The fastest growing markets for car sales. They obviously know what they are doing.

Sure the WRC will always play third fiddle to NASCAR and Indy/Champ series but the potential must be there.
America is the place where you can make a living form most sports, because the market place is so big. Skateboarders, BMX, ripping phone books in half, pulling planes with your ear… you name it. Someone’s making a buck out of just about anything resembling a $port.

So with 303 million people, obviously there must be some proportion of the market customer base taking note of rallying.
Which leads me to wonder how NZ, which a population of 4 million, keeps its WRC event year after year. Not exactly the biggest market around. Shhh! Don’t tell Citroen, but they only sold about 150 new cars here in ’07.

IMO, if the States ditched their ‘Open’ class rallying formula, and went International with Group N/S2000 if would improve things. It would open up the potential for many brands not represented in US motor sport, (NASCAR has Ford, Chevy, Dodge and Toyota, Indy is only Toyota, and Champ cars are Panoz chassis with Cosworth engines).
Being ‘international’ would enable drivers to approach importers and dealers about ‘off-the shelf’ S2000 from Peugeot, Fiat, VW, Toyota etc. There could be potential for a real manufacturer’s title. At the moment Subaru USA seemed to be the only manufacturer involved directly with Travis and Ken.

I also believe it could have the potential to see new S2000 brands. Privateer workshops may undertake the development of their own cars. In a similar way to what we have seen in South Africa with the Toyota Auris and VW Polo S2000. In Australia with the Toyota Corolla and the Ford Fiesta S2000s, and in the UK with the MG and the Proton S2000 cars.
In the early-mid 80s, ex-pat Kiwi Rod Millen developed the Group B 4WD Mazda RX7. Designed to go head to head with John Buffum’s ex-works Audi Quattro in the US championship. He received help from Mazda USA. Mazda Japan was very interested to take the car into the WRC. Unfortunately, that all came to nothing with the demise of Group B in 1986.

Anyway, just my 3 cents worth on US rallying… I can see a Dodge Neon S2000 now!!!

[L5->R5/CR]

IMO, if the States ditched their ‘Open’ class rallying formula, and went International with Group N/S2000 if would improve things. It would open up the potential for many brands not represented in US motor sport, (NASCAR has Ford, Chevy, Dodge and Toyota, Indy is only Toyota, and Champ cars are Panoz chassis with Cosworth engines).
Being ‘international’ would enable drivers to approach importers and dealers about ‘off-the shelf’ S2000 from Peugeot, Fiat, VW, Toyota etc. There could be potential for a real manufacturer’s title. At the moment Subaru USA seemed to be the only manufacturer involved directly with Travis and Ken.

The US Open class was conceived to allow more manufacturers more freedom to enter with some technological restraint.

We have had for instance, a factory team from Hyundai (which has no AWD turbo models). Open for the US is like WRC for so many other championships and while some of the other championships have realized that there are many pitfalls to this so many other still have that top of the line specification.

One other point to make is this. There is nothing stopping anyone from entering a N4 or S2000 car in the US as it stands. To be honest, any real European talent should be able to handily win in the US in a N4 car as well.

The lack of success of the sport in the US cannot be simplified down to the lack of N4 as the premier class (and it will not solve the lack of success either). Based purely on mileage, it will cost a team a bare minimum of $10,000.00 just in fuel for their tow vehicle to do the national championship. There is not a single other championship in the World that I am aware of that poses its entrants with 30,000-40,000 miles of just towing their rally cars to and from events to complete the championship (many of the coast to coast tows need to be done in 2 days adding in substantial food and lodging costs as well). The US is just so freaking huge.


As far as the Manufacturer teams are concerned you are correct in that there is only one. However, Subaru Rally Team USA is very much an importer backed team. The cars are built, prepared, and run by a US company, with little to no involvement with Prodrive for instance (Prodrive does assist the team on some things but has no management role). Subaru of America is only involved on the level of providing the funding and ensuring that the rally team gets shells "in white".

We do currently have one other very capable team despite not being backed by a manufacturer. The Rockstar Energy Drink Rally Team was built under the careful hands and guidance of SYMS Europe. I think most people will be familiar with this team from the PWRC (and SYMS's work with Subaru on the OEM level). While the team members might play coy as to not being on the same level as the SRT-USA team this is a very measured media play. The Rockstar cars are of the same level of specification if not at times higher than the SRT-USA cars. The differences come in the fact that SRT-USA spends more money on constant development and things like carrying spare engines for overnight engine swaps when one car has a problem. The performance and specification of the cars are virtually equal which can be overlooked by the lack of a manufacturer in the team name.

The US Open class formula also makes it easier for privateer teams to build top specification cars. There are two Canadian teams that have very high specification cars that are of the same essential specification. These teams have finished on the podium, challenged the SRT-USA cars for victory on numerous occasions and at least one of these cars could not exist in competitive form with out the structure of the US Open rules.

Rallying certainly is not unique in the US but some of the obstacles that it faces are fairly unique and specific to the US. Perhaps we focus too much on some of the uniqueness of the challenges and that holds us back from greater progress but I think more than anything the US is plagued by its size (a lack of many local events doesn't help and certainly is holding back the level of competition as well).

[jparker]

It has amazed me over the years that the manufacturers haven’t pushed for a WRC event in the US. They want to sell cars and we are talking about the biggest market there is.

Well, I think you answered your own question. Huge market means more room for everybody. Car makers in US are selling their cars without all that hassle of building long term commitments. All they need is short term promotion of new models, and then do nothing for few years. It just works.

[Mickey T]

Based purely on mileage, it will cost a team a bare minimum of $10,000.00 just in fuel for their tow vehicle to do the national championship. There is not a single other championship in the World that I am aware of that poses its entrants with 30,000-40,000 miles of just towing their rally cars to and from events to complete the championship (many of the coast to coast tows need to be done in 2 days adding in substantial food and lodging costs as well). The US is just so freaking huge.



err, have you seen a map of Australia?

continental US and Australia are roughly the same size.

Until recently, the ARC has had two rallies near perth, on the west coast, one in adelaide (halfway to perth), one in tasmania in the deep south, including an expensive overnight ferry trip and others near melbourne, sydney and brisbane.

The ARC isn't at its healthiest now - realistically, it hasn't been healthy since 2004 (cough, cough) - but those have been the logistical realities for the best part of two decades now.

the US doesn't have a monopoly on distance...

[L5->R5/CR]

err, have you seen a map of Australia?

continental US and Australia are roughly the same size.

Until recently, the ARC has had two rallies near perth, on the west coast, one in adelaide (halfway to perth), one in tasmania in the deep south, including an expensive overnight ferry trip and others near melbourne, sydney and brisbane.

The ARC isn't at its healthiest now - realistically, it hasn't been healthy since 2004 (cough, cough) - but those have been the logistical realities for the best part of two decades now.

the US doesn't have a monopoly on distance...


Last time I looked at an ARC map there were 6 (not 9) events, and at least 4 of them were were grouped, geographically speaking at least.

It is not like the ARC is doing splendidly (as you have pointed out). I will admit that distance is a real problem so much so that there are articles on the main ARC site talking about just how hard it is from a team like Herridge to do all of the events because of the amount of towing that is involved...

You are right, Australia faces some similar geographical challenges (although from the looks of things (not that the ARC site makes it super easy) most of the events are generally concentrated now on the south east of the continent). In the ARC if you are based in the South East you have one long haul to Bussleton and one long haul up to Queensland, the other events are likely to be just a couple hundred miles away where in the US you cannot avoid a minimum of at least 4 2,000+mile (most will be closer to 3-4,000 miles) round trip tows. In the ARC if you are based in the West or North you are severely screwed and if you are based in the East you are moderately screwed but you can be based in the south east and not be in too poor of a position, that isn't possible in the US...

[janvanvurpa]

Well it seem there were a short period the WRC was taken place in America according to the statistic, not sure if I am correct. Markku won there in 86 with a S4, then Kankkunen and Biasion in a Lancia group A. It doesn't seem like anyone talk about these events. I for one don't know anything about it. Are there are any footages or memories? Were there any American drivers that received WRC points or gotten a good position?

Anyway, we really need a WRC here in US.

I predict a dead thread.

I was at the 85, 86, 87 and 88 Olympus WRC. I was as a spectator/taxi cab driver (for very boozed up bunch of Swedes including Ola Stromberg, reigning Swedish Champion, and his engine builder Tommy Karlsson from Trollhattan of Trollspeed fame) in the 85, as a driver in the 86 one, speccie at 87, and as crew for Canadian Niall Leslie at the 88.

The events were run out of Olympia Washington which is 100km to the SW of Seattle, and the stages were all between Olympia and the Coast about 90km away.

They were organised by an extremely focused individual named John Nagle, and in his drive to bring WRC to USA he burned every bridge the man had including his family. Meeting his brother Jim at a local event, obviously related by looks and name, he said "I am no relation to that man".
John Nagle's energy was focus on the organisation and training of the hordes of workers needed to run the event and with schmoozing with "the Big Boys" and he made ZERO effort to PROMOTE the event.
When he famously got a contract from Toyota for round 100K USD as "sponsor" I asked him why there was not a single poster in any car related business, no radio, no TV, NOTHING and he answered "I get paid to ORGANISE. I am not a promoter."

So the local awareness was NEAR Zero, aside from the 35-40 local club level rally guys and our crews and families and friends.
It was not helped much when the foreign press, particularly the German and French opened articles on the event with tales of being in gas station across the street from the major Service in Oakville, Wa and being asked by the guy at the cash register "Say is there so sorta motor-sickle event going on around here?"
I must have met that same guy in the same store.

The infamous event in the 87 Olympus where Markku Alen met a supposed "civilian" car was a result of Nagle's celebrity obsession. Nagle had assigned three friends to run the Pace car or Zero car operations: Rod Johnson from Issaquah, WA and friends (and customers of mine) Dave Dunn and Sam Bryan.
After month and thousands of miles pre checking route and distances and control location Nagle announced on the morning of the event "We've got a couple of Hollywood stars to drive the cars so thanks we don't need you, Bye!"
He had gotten 2 B grade actors, one of which Richard Dean Anderson, was the guy in the silly series "McGyver"---he's the fool in the original Videovision production seen saying
"I are a race car driver". That event began in Seattle for one short 1 mile SS, then transited to Tacoma 55km south then to the gravel and there the TV~ stars both managed to crash within 10m, and as they knocked off their radio antennas, no word reached the Start Control or the Finish control of the stage. After more than 20 minutes the Finish Control chief jumps into one of his workers unmarked pickup trucks and heads back down the stage to find the two missing Zero cars, and at the other end somebody at the start control decides to start Markku down the Stage. Markku had just passed the 2 stuffed Zero cars when he meets the Control worker heading towards him on a long straight. No danger, but as he said, after New Zealand the year before!!.... The guy in the truck, a guy who has been a worker at events for years since said "he was so pissed off I figured I better act ignorant and pretend he was a bumbling local, so he did.

So the story becomes a legend and now years later a Toyota pickup is a Mustang, but the important thing that lasts is the fixation on "Celebrtity" and "spectacle" alone which has been since then to today touted, shouted and hammered incessently as "This is what America needs to finally get........." recogition, awareness whatever and that is alleged to lead to instant multi-million dollar SPONSORSHIPS hanging off of every tree.

At the 88 event there were approximately 100 maybe 120 people total at the Finish ceremonies, nearly every one service crews or workers or a few guys like me without homologated cars, it was pitiful, hard even for Professionals to try and look excited.

Worker burnout, crew burnout and disappointment that the recognition that most wished for had not decended was thick in the air.

The fact that of 303,000,000 there might be 250-300 licence holders nationwide and that even the so called fastest in the Continent would be hard pressed to break into the top 20 at a typical Finnish F-cup rally, that watching in person even so called "Championship" or as I call them " Champignonskit" is an appallingly depressing and boring experience, doesn't and hasn't in 20 years caused many to flinch an inch from the belief "USA needs the WRC"

USA needs 10,000 rally licence holders in solid cars that they can afford to run for more than one or 2 seasons because contrary to popular American "knowledge" the skills and experience to drive REALLY fast doesn't come in 4-8 hours of driving stages and real skill won't surface in thin competition where newcomers with newly bought cars can instantly on their first stages begin in the top 5 overall.

Another age old problem not unique to USA but certainly very well developed to an extreme here is what we just saw a little above when Kevin Hahn states the "recieved wisdom" about "USA is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooo big" and when an Australian suggest looking at the map, Kevin proceeds to argue with him.

Regardless of if we've tried the exact same thing 4-5 times in the past and failed to ignite any broader interest and any increased participation, you cannot ever tell Americans ANYTHING without an argument.

And Kevin I am not picking on you, you are just a convenient example

(And Kevin maybe you should try just driving a car from one end of Europe to the other, say Stockholm to Antibes, not even a stinkin diesel service rig, just a car.
Then tell us about the distances versus time. US Highways are superb, costs are 1/3 of elsewhere, speeds are fast enough, TRAVEL is EASY relative to most anywhere else in the world , TRY IT, Kevin.)

[BDunnell]

I predict a dead thread.

Far from it! Rather, it's a fascinating one.

[Tomi]

[quote="janvanvurpa"]

Lol :)

[Maui J.]

Well, I think you answered your own question. Huge market means more room for everybody. Car makers in US are selling their cars without all that hassle of building long term commitments. All they need is short term promotion of new models, and then do nothing for few years. It just works.

They maybe selling their cars, but at a loss. Their share of the pie is diminishing. Ford lost $2.7 Billion in 2007, and GM lost $39.7 Billion.

I wouldn’t say a big market relates to instant profit. It only relates to more sales proportional due to the population base. There is still thousand of wages to pay weekly, distribution costs etc.

[L5->R5/CR]

Another age old problem not unique to USA but certainly very well developed to an extreme here is what we just saw a little above when Kevin Hahn states the "recieved wisdom" about "USA is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooo big" and when an Australian suggest looking at the map, Kevin proceeds to argue with him.

Regardless of if we've tried the exact same thing 4-5 times in the past and failed to ignite any broader interest and any increased participation, you cannot ever tell Americans ANYTHING without an argument.

And Kevin I am not picking on you, you are just a convenient example

(And Kevin maybe you should try just driving a car from one end of Europe to the other, say Stockholm to Antibes, not even a stinkin diesel service rig, just a car.
Then tell us about the distances versus time. US Highways are superb, costs are 1/3 of elsewhere, speeds are fast enough, TRAVEL is EASY relative to most anywhere else in the world , TRY IT, Kevin.)


John, I'm not going to argue with you, but maybe instead of lecturing people on reading skills you should invest in your own.

There is no "received wisdom" when it comes to the problem of the size of the US (and if you'll notice, I originally mentioned that it is a problem in relation to local and affordable events). I've driven coast to coast and towed a rally car 1,300 miles each way to get to an event. I've paid for the fuel, and understand the cost. It is a big problem, and if you are going to run the national championship there is no way around it. The point to my reply to the Australia counter argument was that in the US, no matter where you are based, if you do all 9 rallies, you will go to at least 4 that are over 1,000 miles each way (and probably tow 300-800 miles each way for the rest). If you are on the coasts you will have at least 2 that are 2,200+ miles each way and 5 more that are over 900. In contrast to this in Australia, if you go to all 6 rallies, you can base your team in such a manner as to have 4 of the 6 events within 700 miles and only have to co over 1,000 miles each way twice.

The subtext is that while Australia is huge the events are much more reasonably located with respect to geography. My reply was not to argue that Australia isn't big, or that distance isn't a problem, but that while Australia was as big, and distance is a problem, it is not the same kind of problem, heaven forbid there be nuances.

My argument also was never that it was easier to travel in Europe or that it was more difficult to travel in the US (it has been an issue of cost, not effort). That fact is immaterial to the discussion as while it may be more difficult to sustain trans continental travel, rally competitors have far less distance to travel in the first place. How many parts of Europe have rallies in which there are no other rallies within a 800 mile radius? Serious question, because I doubt there are very many (heck, some countries borders don't reach beyond a 800 mile radius). It doesn't matter if it is easier to travel in the US, it still costs a lot (and while it costs a lot in Europe, it used to cost 30% of what it costs in the US just 6 years ago).


I understand how you could miss all of that since you assume that all that I know is second hand, and that I couldn't possibly have any real knowledge or experience to base my comments on. How many out of state national rallies have you gone to in the last 3 years (3 years being key for the high fuel prices)? I went to 3 out of state national rallies last year, and towed the rally car for a team to two of them, maybe, just maybe I speak from some experience.

The underlying facts are simple.
The US doesn't have enough drivers or enough truly talented drivers. Faced with a large country with such a wide spread of events, there are very serious fuel costs to participating in the main National Championship. While this makes it difficult for the championship to take off there is also a lack in much of the country of affordable events that are close by. Our drivers are more scattered, our events are more scattered, and our costs are distorted. Most European championships develop better drivers and more fans through more local events being held more frequently. Even a country that is of similar size such as Australia doesn't face the same type of geography problems due to a more reasonable and sustainable geographic spread/concentration.

If you are going to disagree with me at least have the decency to provide actual rebuttals (I don't see you arguing that part of what hurts the idea of a US national championship is the geography of the country and events, just that since Australia is as big geography must not be a problem. At the same time didn't that poster also point out that the ARC is not healthy right now either, even with their more geographically favorable structure they have very real obstacles to attempt to overcome due in large part to size).

[DeltaS4]

If you are familiar with the history of the WRC in the USA, you know the Olympus was the second attempt at hosting a WRC round. The 1973 & '74 Press-on-Regardless events in Michigan were the first.

Now not to hijack the thread, but does anyone know the complete story of why the '74 POR was cut short, leaving a Renault 17 as the unlikely winner?

The story I heard years ago was that Sandro Munari, in a Stratos, was driving at high speed on a road section, trying to make the start of the next stage. He went flying by a local sheriff, who took off after him with a vengeance. So Munari makes the start and goes into the stage, then the sheriff shows up in hot pursuit shortly after. Apparently the cop car drove into the special stage in pursuit, and I don't know how it ended, except that the rally was cut short, and there was no USA WRC round the next year.

Anyone hear a similar story or can shed some light?

[GruppoB]

also heard the story about the sherriff dont know if its true. JVL?

[jonkka]

http://www.juwra.com/usa_press_on_regardless.html

[Nenukknak]

If you are familiar with the history of the WRC in the USA, you know the Olympus was the second attempt at hosting a WRC round. The 1973 & '74 Press-on-Regardless events in Michigan were the first.

Now not to hijack the thread, but does anyone know the complete story of why the '74 POR was cut short, leaving a Renault 17 as the unlikely winner?

The story I heard years ago was that Sandro Munari, in a Stratos, was driving at high speed on a road section, trying to make the start of the next stage. He went flying by a local sheriff, who took off after him with a vengeance. So Munari makes the start and goes into the stage, then the sheriff shows up in hot pursuit shortly after. Apparently the cop car drove into the special stage in pursuit, and I don't know how it ended, except that the rally was cut short, and there was no USA WRC round the next year.

Anyone hear a similar story or can shed some light?

It the book rally from McKlein it says the sheriff crashed, he survived, but he did crash.

[DeltaS4]

Interesting...thanks. Not surprising the whole incident happened, I guess.
I just found some pictures from the '73 POR, and everything has a decidedly amateur look to it. One picture is of the winning Boyce/Woods Corolla on the podium with "FOR SALE" scrawled in the dirt on the side of the door.

[Doug Woods]

One picture is of the winning Boyce/Woods Corolla on the podium with "FOR SALE" scrawled in the dirt on the side of the door.

Not sure who did that but had someone offered us the money they could probably have bought the car on the spot. It went to the crusher about six months later.

[DeltaS4]

.

[Maui J.]

Not sure who did that but had someone offered us the money they could probably have bought the car on the spot. It went to the crusher about six months later.

To the crusher! No way! What a shame for a winning WRC car.

Great to have another WRC event winner on the forum.
Doug and Pentti... world bloody famous around here.

[Mickey T]

At the same time didn't that poster also point out that the ARC is not healthy right now either, even with their more geographically favorable structure they have very real obstacles to attempt to overcome due in large part to size.


that's not what i said at all. i said the ARC was at a low ebb right now, but that the distances involved in competing in the championship have remained more or less unchanged for 30 years.

in that 30 year period there have been cracking good cycles (the last realistically finished at the end of 2004) and lower cycles.

the difficulties in the ARC are all management and politics related, not distance related.

my gut feel would be that the US doesn't currently justify a national championship - that pursuing a national championship is building a tower on sand.

it needs strong, strong state and club championships beneath that (both of which are strong in Australia) before it can stretch its friendships with the kind of national championship you're insisting that you have.

without the solid bedrock of rallying diehards, you will just burn out the few volunteers and competitors in a chronic boom-bust cycle.

Maybe the national championship should be consolidated to be more competitor friendly until there are sustainable legs underneath it?

[L5->R5/CR]

that's not what i said at all. i said the ARC was at a low ebb right now, but that the distances involved in competing in the championship have remained more or less unchanged for 30 years.


My apologies, I combined what you said with some other viewpoints and then combined them as yours. I went back and re-read your posts and I apologize for grossly overstating the point you were making about distance.
That statement should have read "didn't that poster point out that the ARC isn't always that healthy".

Then comments relating to size and the fact that there are still some teams that are considered to be contenders for the championship that very much struggle to over come the travel.



in that 30 year period there have been cracking good cycles (the last realistically finished at the end of 2004) and lower cycles.

Sounds familiar!


the difficulties in the ARC are all management and politics related, not distance related.

The distance argument has been overstated, especially in this thread (and especially by me). Distance just compounds a lot of the other problems with the environment that rally operates in and has created for itself (unstable rules, problems with insurance (which make our entry fees very distorted), and many others all are magnified by the issues of distance and travel.



my gut feel would be that the US doesn't currently justify a national championship - that pursuing a national championship is building a tower on sand.

it needs strong, strong state and club championships beneath that (both of which are strong in Australia) before it can stretch its friendships with the kind of national championship you're insisting that you have.

without the solid bedrock of rallying diehards, you will just burn out the few volunteers and competitors in a chronic boom-bust cycle.

Maybe the national championship should be consolidated to be more competitor friendly until there are sustainable legs underneath it?


You are probably right in that the US does not exactly justify a national championship. The regional championships aren't incredibly strong and there is a very real generational gap in rally organizing structures. Many of the national championship class not only have a couple of "contenders" but a couple of teams that make enough events to qualify.

Part of the issue we are dealing with is that for a variety of reasons we have a very distorted structure. Far too much has been invested in the past in developing a national championship to the point that without radical change we are stuck with the idea. Mix in some interested sponsors, interested rich guys that want to travel and be recognized for it (I mean what I am inferring here), and events that would like to mix in the prestige of being a "National Championship Round" and we are stuck with the idea of a national championship, whether it is healthy or not.

Heck, except a select few in the US, it is commonly shared that our championship, if it is to be a championship, should be only 6 events, if that. You don't really get much with a championship of 9 poorly attended events...

Have you seen the movie Big? Rally in the US is kind of like a 6 foot tall 6 year old. There is a lot of very uneven growth and some real development gaps.

[janvanvurpa]

My apologies, I combined what you said with some other viewpoints and then combined them as yours. I went back and re-read your posts and I apologize for grossly overstating the point you were making about distance.
That statement should have read "didn't that poster point out that the ARC isn't always that healthy".

Then comments relating to size and the fact that there are still some teams that are considered to be contenders for the championship that very much struggle to over come the travel.




Sounds familiar!



The distance argument has been overstated, especially in this thread (and especially by me). Distance just compounds a lot of the other problems with the environment that rally operates in and has created for itself (unstable rules, problems with insurance (which make our entry fees very distorted), and many others all are magnified by the issues of distance and travel.





You are probably right in that the US does not exactly justify a national championship. The regional championships aren't incredibly strong and there is a very real generational gap in rally organizing structures. Many of the national championship class not only have a couple of "contenders" but a couple of teams that make enough events to qualify.

Part of the issue we are dealing with is that for a variety of reasons we have a very distorted structure. Far too much has been invested in the past in developing a national championship to the point that without radical change we are stuck with the idea. Mix in some interested sponsors, interested rich guys that want to travel and be recognized for it (I mean what I am inferring here), and events that would like to mix in the prestige of being a "National Championship Round" and we are stuck with the idea of a national championship, whether it is healthy or not.

Heck, except a select few in the US, it is commonly shared that our championship, if it is to be a championship, should be only 6 events, if that. You don't really get much with a championship of 9 poorly attended events...

Have you seen the movie Big? Rally in the US is kind of like a 6 foot tall 6 year old. There is a lot of very uneven growth and some real development gaps.

Jeeeeezuz H. Krist a post from Kevin I agree with heartily.
Such is the focus on the "Championship" that in the late 90s we had a "National Champignon" in our "Production" class who was chiding a very fast friend (Who incidentally
just won Overall in our season opener the "Doo Wop Rally" in his Volvo 240 turbo which i supplied most of the parts for) and saying "Well maybe when you've around a while and earned some credibility....."
Now this "Champion" is blabbing how he's a "National Champion yet his record was a interestingly consistent one, the boy was second to last OA on every event, and better still, second to last on EVERY STAGE except 2-3 in the entire season.
When gently prodded about his audacity, his answer was "I had a plan and I drove tactically every stage of the whole season."

Americans more than any other people I have been around like simple solutions, and the "simple solution" for the perennial low number of participants and lack of interest has never been to try and recruit HUNDREDS more cars and crews and in the heat of MORE competition, develop BETTER drivers and generate interest in the sort of person who relishes hard battles, the "Solution" has been "We need___________ TV star" or "We need a WRC event....." and then miraculously, "Then things will get the recognition "we" deserve and then things will TAKE OFF!!"
The current solution is "Travis and Ken".

MickeyT,
you hit the nail on the head there with the "worker burn-out" (the rllay scene in the North West virtually collapsed after the Olympus WRC years with SCCA "Pro-Rally" events drawing as few as 13 enties in 88-89) and the strongly cyclic nature and how the US lacks even the most rudimentary club structure and and from the "Federation" side formerly SCCA, now the private corporation "Rally America", the answers have been the same wishing for a 'saviour' scenario.

It seems obvious that "The Next Big Deal" idea has not worked and currently is not working, yet suggestions that revising where effort be directed are met with scorn and contempt. Suggestions that we might TRY to learn from those countries with solid, broad based rally programs such as Finland with their enormously popular GroupF series are met with the inevitable American response "This ain't Yoor-up".
The future seems very grim here.

[Zeakiwi]

Aloha
I recall the comment when a Pacific North West local was told the (wrc) rally was being held in the area. He replied 'Was it a Democrat or Republican rally ?'
Both the late 'Possum' Bourne (former swrt driver) and Neil Allport (Ralliart NZ) contested the 1986 US event. Obviously an important learning experience for both in contesting a rally far from their bases.
The 88 video is notable for the amount of dust and the first appearance of the Mitsubishi VR4 in four wheel steer form (?)

If rally cars have limited appeal in the USA perhaps some rally tyres could be put on a Nascar and the track could run into the infield over a big jump before the car rejoins the circuit. The IROC series used to be a great watch.

Zeakiwi