pace-notes

[Duby]

hellow

i am a rally co-driver in Israel and all the rally scene is very young here.
in the last couple of weeks or so there is big debate about how to take the pace-notes and how all the rally world are doing it .
and what i mean ?
when you are comming to a rally , you go to a stage and doing the writing of the pace-notes . now , do you have a 2nd run on this stage to check what is written or you just have 1 pass on the stage and go on.

it really important to know how yoy do this in any country and in any level from club to national and intl.

thanks
duby

[DonJippo]

In Finland it's the same as in WRC, two runs.

[bowler]

different countries have different rules.

donjippo has explained the WRC requirements.

you would need to check what your own regulations are.

The Rally scene is more established in Jordan, and you may be able to get more information from there. I know that it may not be so easy to go there, but motorsport often transcends the restrictions of politics.

[GruppoB]

In the US we have just recently been trying to emrace pace-notes. We still heavily rely on Jemba computer generated notes. I think Jemba is a little ridiciulous and Nicky Grist seemed to agree.

Please dont go down the Jemba route unless you have to. IE you're competitors dont have the time to make their own.

[raybak]

We have two runs through the stages writing and checking our notes here in Australia. Many of the ARC stages are the same as previous years so you are mainly able to just check your notes from previous years.

If there are many new stages it can be quite difficult to keep within the Recce timeframes and speed limits. At Rally South Australia this year we finished Recceing the last stage in the dark.

Duby if you need any info on pace noting PM or email me, glad to help in any way.

Ray

[Duby]

thanks for the quick answers .

the big debate is if to do it once or twice .

i heard that in france and italy in the club level they do it only once ...is it true ?


duby

[bowler]

there are lots of reasons for the duration of recce.

If the roads are public, then residents are inconvenienced by recce in any form, so the numbers of passes is important.

If drivers treat it as practice and not as recce, then there is the likelihood of incidents which causes problems.

competitors have the costs in fuel and time to consider.

If the roads are private (forest or similar) then there is the inconvenience of the landowner to be taken into account.

some years ago recce was not controlled, and competitors could do as much as they wanted, and some did. Obviously they had an advantage over those who were not able to put in the time. At the other extreme is the argument that there should be none at all, and then everyone is equal, and there is no advantage. This then creates the "safety" argument which says that there should be some recce to make sure that there are no surprises.

There is no right answer.

[raybak]

I think that 2 passes of recce is enough. If there was no recce the local factor would make a large difference in results. I know many local drivers in Canberra can go a hell of a lot faster on a blind rally than out of staters. Yet when we have our pace noted events it evens them all up.

We have very regulated Recce here in Australia where they have officials at the start and finish of each stage. Certain car numbers are allowed in at different times so that the whole field is not trying to go along the same road thus causing traffic jams!

We hve strict speed limits for Recce, some rallies it's 80kmh others it's 60kmh. This can be difficult in some events to get through all the stages, so the planning is very important, that's where a codriver has to be on the ball before recce and work out all the distances to get all the stages done.

Ray

[castor]

Greece 4 passes
Italy and CZ 3 passes
ERC goes along country and FIA rules
WRC 2 passes

Specific days and times , a marshall is keeping your time in and time out of the stage ( a reconnaissance form has to be in the car at all times). No back and forth inside the stage is allowed. No roll cage , mufflers , road legal tyres (in Italy ordinary radial tyres even on gravel stages and no engine protection), speed limits are checked and if found overspeeding you may get a time penalty(3-5min) or even exclusion from the event.

Check also the Supplementary Regulations of various events like
http://www.elparally.gr/2006/common/pdf/supplementary_regulations.pdf
http://www.barum.rally.cz/2006/soutezici/zu_gb.pdf
http://www.rally1000miglia.it/images/pdf/rpg%201000%20miglia%2006%20inglese.pdf
http://www.ypresrally.com/docu/reg.pdf
http://www.patricksoft.fr/Antibes/Reglement_Inter_2006.PDF .

[FrankenSchwinn]

i remember that in france they used to do it as many times as you wanted and some would really go through the stages 10 times! now i think it's 3 times, i think. in the usa it's 2 times i think (for the rallies where you have to take notes because some rallies the organizers give you the notes already). switzerland is 3 times as well, i think.

[L5->R5/CR]

in the usa it's 2 times i think (for the rallies where you have to take notes because some rallies the organizers give you the notes already). switzerland is 3 times as well, i think.

There are very few events in the US that have full 2 pass recce.

Most events that offer recce actualy offer what is better termed as a notes familiarization pass. Organizers provide competitors with notes, normally created by the JEMBA system, and then competitors are allowed to go through the stages once to make additions or corrections to these notes for their liking. A lot of events in the US are not compact enough to do a full 2 pass recce in one day. Given the lack of sponsorship and the high level of club men financing their own participation recce is an additional cost for a lot of events, that said there are some events that can offer it and are considering it. Most of the US events are actually blind with JEMBA generated notes as well. There is a lot of constant debate about recce in the US mainly related to the very high costs of rallying here (not many other championships where you could be looking at 30,000+ miles of towing just to do all of the events).

In Canada there is a high density of events that have two pass recce, but some of those events which do not have a conducive lay out to two pass recce either have a notes familiarization pass or JEMBA.


Typically recce approaches reflect the lay out of the events and the financial health of the championship, ie how many competitors can afford to be at an event for even more days. There are plenty of countries in Europe where a driver could potentially never drive more than 2-3 hours to get to an event, and theoretically go home each night if they were so motivated. This is not the reality in North America so our circumstances reflect that.

In a more compact country such as Israel I think it would be possible to do a two pass recce as long as the events are fairly compact.

[FrankenSchwinn]

L5, i was thinking about the tarmac NY rally. honestly are there any others?

[Tomi]

TOrganizers provide competitors with notes,

Quite funny, In notes you should be able to trust blindly :) How can anyone trust in some organisers notes?

[GruppoB]

L5, i was thinking about the tarmac NY rally. honestly are there any others?

At Rim of the World (RIP) we had one pass recce meant to familiarize ourselves with the jemba notes, although some people ahead of us were making their own from scratch and stopped frequently for somewhat long periods of time which was very annoying.

[L5->R5/CR]

L5, i was thinking about the tarmac NY rally. honestly are there any others?



There were a variety of events that offered atleast one pass, however, mostly a notes familiarization pass with the JEMBA notes. I believe most if not all of the events in the United States Rally Championship had atleast a notes familiarization pass, and the Maine Forest Rally (to be remained the New England Forest Rally for 2007) offered a notes familiarization pass as well. I am fairly certain that atleast 4 of the 6 canadian championship events have 2 pass (I believe the current snow rally may not due to plowing schedules and there is one event in which road permissions and event lay out are not conducive so they use a NFP). There are a lot of clubmen events in Canada that have 2 pass recce as well. There will be more in the US in the coming years.



Quite funny, In notes you should be able to trust blindly :) How can anyone trust in some organisers notes?


Most of the organizer supplied notes are done using the JEMBA system and well experienced competitors on the notes crew. If you're not familiar with the JEMBA system it uses 3 accelerometers to measure changes in the road, and the crews check the out put and put in descriptive additions for things like junctions and the cautions. One of the canadian events uses notes generated by highly experienced competitors which has been met with occassional disgruntledness.

The effectiveness of the JEMBA system is open to debate. One of the pros of the system is that it provides a degree of consistency in the notes on an event to event basis for describing the road. The major downside is that the system describes the road, not how to drive it , so the driver has to process the information and the road instead of having notes tailored to the road which can lead to confidence issues and over committing to insufficent information. Sometimes there are things like straight over crest or don't cut that are missing so drivers have to take lots of chances or keep a little bit in reserve. However for organizers and competitors the costs are significantly reduced but it does take an element away from the competition and this is something that is intended to be addressed by the notes familiarization pass (the whole idea being is that it can be done at lower speeds and in less time reducing expenses).

The big plusses for the JEMBA system given the current situation in the US is that it reduces the days teams are at the rally, which for many private teams is a significant expense. It also allows the organizers to run some reduced expenses as they don't have to provide as many workers or time, and in some cases it would be difficult to do 2 pass with open roads and politics around the road permissions prevent additional closures. In a lot of ways the current state of affairs in the US just isn't conducive to full 2 pass recce (event layouts, road permissions, workers, competitor expenses) but the idea of providing a notes familiarization pass as a means to bridge to 2 pass recce being offered in the national championship is being embraced by competitors and organizers and may be fully implemented in the next 2-3 years paving the way for recce to be a standard practice in the future. There is atleast one event in the US that may offer a full 2 pass recce this year in the Rally America Championship, although we won't know if the organizers are able to do this for some time (they have a very compact rally route and supportive community for road permissions so the conditions are right if they chose to undertake such a task).

Bjorn can perhaps provide more information than I can on the matter if anyone is interested/he chimes in.

[Tomi]

There were a variety of events that offered atleast one pass, however, mostly a notes familiarization pass with the JEMBA notes. I believe most if not all of the events in the United States Rally Championship had atleast a notes familiarization pass, and the Maine Forest Rally (to be remained the New England Forest Rally for 2007) offered a notes familiarization pass as well. I am fairly certain that atleast 4 of the 6 canadian championship events have 2 pass (I believe the current snow rally may not due to plowing schedules and there is one event in which road permissions and event lay out are not conducive so they use a NFP). There are a lot of clubmen events in Canada that have 2 pass recce as well. There will be more in the US in the coming years.





Most of the organizer supplied notes are done using the JEMBA system and well experienced competitors on the notes crew. If you're not familiar with the JEMBA system it uses 3 accelerometers to measure changes in the road, and the crews check the out put and put in descriptive additions for things like junctions and the cautions. One of the canadian events uses notes generated by highly experienced competitors which has been met with occassional disgruntledness.

The effectiveness of the JEMBA system is open to debate. One of the pros of the system is that it provides a degree of consistency in the notes on an event to event basis for describing the road. The major downside is that the system describes the road, not how to drive it , so the driver has to process the information and the road instead of having notes tailored to the road which can lead to confidence issues and over committing to insufficent information. Sometimes there are things like straight over crest or don't cut that are missing so drivers have to take lots of chances or keep a little bit in reserve. However for organizers and competitors the costs are significantly reduced but it does take an element away from the competition and this is something that is intended to be addressed by the notes familiarization pass (the whole idea being is that it can be done at lower speeds and in less time reducing expenses).

The big plusses for the JEMBA system given the current situation in the US is that it reduces the days teams are at the rally, which for many private teams is a significant expense. It also allows the organizers to run some reduced expenses as they don't have to provide as many workers or time, and in some cases it would be difficult to do 2 pass with open roads and politics around the road permissions prevent additional closures. In a lot of ways the current state of affairs in the US just isn't conducive to full 2 pass recce (event layouts, road permissions, workers, competitor expenses) but the idea of providing a notes familiarization pass as a means to bridge to 2 pass recce being offered in the national championship is being embraced by competitors and organizers and may be fully implemented in the next 2-3 years paving the way for recce to be a standard practice in the future. There is atleast one event in the US that may offer a full 2 pass recce this year in the Rally America Championship, although we won't know if the organizers are able to do this for some time (they have a very compact rally route and supportive community for road permissions so the conditions are right if they chose to undertake such a task).

Bjorn can perhaps provide more information than I can on the matter if anyone is interested/he chimes in.

If they anyway pass once, I think it would be clever to do own notes, that way you learn to make notes.
To practise making notes else is not so difficult, you can do that driving with your co-driver what ever road.

[sollitt]

Most events that offer recce actualy offer what is better termed as a notes familiarization pass. Organizers provide competitors with notes, normally created by the JEMBA system, and then competitors are allowed to go through the stages once to make additions or corrections to these notes for their liking.

This is exactly the system we have here in New Zealand. It works fine.

The odd competitor writes their own notes on the back of the 'official' pages which is stretching the rules a bit but it's never become an issue.

[Fleur]

In Malaysia, and in China, two pass recce is allowed. In Thailand, normally 2 pass, but have rallied there where unlimited passes are available, but within a certain time frame.
To write on one pass is possible, and as Sollitt mentioned is done by maybe one or two crews in NZ, but it is much higher risk.
For me, the ideal is two passes, writing own notes, but if we only have 1 pass, as in New Zealand National Championship, then I would rather play it safe and modify JEMBA notes.
The JEMBA notes are not ideal, there are several common things I change or add in, but they are certainly better (IMO) than running blind. The speed of the national field in NZ has increased since the introduction of JEMBA notes, and therefore NZ Drivers are becoming more competitive overseas.

[FrankenSchwinn]

There were a variety of events that offered atleast one pass, however, mostly a notes familiarization pass with the JEMBA notes. I believe most if not all of the events in the United States Rally Championship had atleast a notes familiarization pass, and the Maine Forest Rally (to be remained the New England Forest Rally for 2007) offered a notes familiarization pass as well. I am fairly certain that atleast 4 of the 6 canadian championship events have 2 pass (I believe the current snow rally may not due to plowing schedules and there is one event in which road permissions and event lay out are not conducive so they use a NFP). There are a lot of clubmen events in Canada that have 2 pass recce as well. There will be more in the US in the coming years.


i've only been to STPR and i didnt think they did a pass there because it's all national park or state park or something. their website doesn't have info (they seem to be in the process of switching their name from Susquehana Trail Pro Rally to Performance Rally) do you know?

[L5->R5/CR]

i've only been to STPR and i didnt think they did a pass there because it's all national park or state park or something. their website doesn't have info (they seem to be in the process of switching their name from Susquehana Trail Pro Rally to Performance Rally) do you know?




STPR is possibly the last rally to be able to implement any sort of recce.

In PA there are certain legal restrictions, that actually put the event in jeopardy for a period of time when the SCCA handed stage rally over to Rally-America. The politics of the event in Wellsboro, and in Penn in general put the event where they can only get permissions for road permits for one day (there are significant legal obstacles to even holding an event on public roads which is one of the reasons why we will probably never see a second rally in PA for that matter) and the sensitivities to the road use prevents open road recce even at normal speeds (it would only take one person to botch that up). STPR will also, as far as I know, always be a one day marathon rally as well. It would be possible to recce 100 plus miles of stages but to do two pass would require a lot of time for a rally that for a variety of reasons is put into a position that requires two different service locations.

In the US there are two organizations. NASA and Rally-America. NASA on a whole has a philosophy more oriented towards finding ways to include some sort of recce. Rally-America events generally are of more of a mindset that for a variety of reasons shys away from recce (tarmac rallies as well for that matter). That isn't to say that Rally-America events can't have recce or a NFP, that is something that they leave to the organizers, but they as an organization are not promoting. At this point it has more to due with the route and the community than with the organization. Organizers are being allowed to make the decision on whether or not to provide a NFP or recce.



As for making pace notes on a one pass versus modifying stage notes to be pace notes. That is something for teams to decide on their own. A lot of teams I have talked to find modifying the stage notes from the JEMBA system to be the best compromise as it provides a fairly accurate and detailed base upon which to add information to help the driver commit with more confidence.

[FrankenSchwinn]

STPR is possibly the last rally to be able to implement any sort of recce.

that's what i thought, and the rest i knew already, i'm not a newbie to the scene ;)

for people who dont know STPR: http://www.stpr.net and check out my vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4fsYNiimnI <- watch the dirty kid and then the "wall" of mud fly at us as a mitsu goes a little wide - 4:06min

[L5-&gt;R5/CR]

that's what i thought, and the rest i knew already, i'm not a newbie to the scene ;)

for people who dont know STPR: http://www.stpr.net and check out my vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4fsYNiimnI <- watch the dirty kid and then the "wall" of mud fly at us as a mitsu goes a little wide - 4:06min



That is Tom Lawless giving the dirt bath incase anyone was wondering/cares.

[relista]

I am very sorry to say in Serbia(Europe) we dont have any regs about recce.Competitors can do the recce as much and as long as they wish,some evin with the rally cars.

[Duby]

Greece 4 passes
Italy and CZ 3 passes
ERC goes along country and FIA rules
WRC 2 passes

Specific days and times , a marshall is keeping your time in and time out of the stage ( a reconnaissance form has to be in the car at all times). No back and forth inside the stage is allowed. No roll cage , mufflers , road legal tyres (in Italy ordinary radial tyres even on gravel stages and no engine protection), speed limits are checked and if found overspeeding you may get a time penalty(3-5min) or even exclusion from the event.

Check also the Supplementary Regulations of various events like
http://www.elparally.gr/2006/common/pdf/supplementary_regulations.pdf
http://www.barum.rally.cz/2006/soutezici/zu_gb.pdf
http://www.rally1000miglia.it/images/pdf/rpg%201000%20miglia%2006%20inglese.pdf
http://www.ypresrally.com/docu/reg.pdf
http://www.patricksoft.fr/Antibes/Reglement_Inter_2006.PDF .



those are all asphalt rallies .

is there any gravel rallies ?



thanks

[castor]

those are all asphalt rallies .

is there any gravel rallies ?



thanks

There is no differentiation between tarmac and gravel rallies.
At least not in Greece and Italy that I have some experience.

From my point of view , gravel rallies , could require less passages in order to maintain the road surface in a good condition.

[Duby]

o.k

is there any officall program of gravel rally from greece or italy that provide the nomber of passes in the stages ?
i mean like that you gave for the asphalt rallies ?


thanks

[castor]

Unfortunatelly I didnt find anything in English but if you go to this link http://www.csai.aci.it/csaiCms/VirtualFile?id=733&rif=DOC by the Italian Federation art 14.3.1 regarding RICOGNIZIONI (Recce) it says "al massimo tre passaggi per prova speciale" which means maximum three passages per s.s.

This is the general regulations for National rallies in Italy.

You can also check http://www.rallycostasmeralda.com/moduli/Programma2006.pdf

"RICOGNIZIONI I concorrenti saranno suddivisi su due gruppi in base al numero di gara: gruppo A e gruppo B ricognizioni gruppo A dal n. 1 al n. 40 10 ottobre 2006 prove speciali 1.ma tappa dalle ore 09.00 alle ore 18.00 11 ottobre 2006 prove speciali 2.da tappa dalle ore 09.00 alle ore 18.00 ricognizioni gruppo B dal n. 41 al numero massimo 10 ottobre 2006 prove speciali 2.da tappa dalle ore 09.00 alle ore 18.00 11 ottobre 2006 prove speciali 1.ma tappa dalle ore 09.00 alle ore 18.00 Saranno consentiti esclusivamente 3 passaggi per prova speciale. Sarà vietato effettuare ricognizioni con vetture a trazione integrale anche disattivabile, fuoristrada e con pneumatici M+S o da neve, anche se in dotazione originaria delle vetture. Saranno vietati i collegamenti radio sulle vetture utilizzate per le ricognizioni e le vetture "staffetta" che precedono quelle utilizzate per le ricognizioni."

and http://62.149.231.75/rubiconecorse/sancrispino_06/regolamento.pdf

Both rallies are gravel.

In Greek there is the link of our NSA http://www.ethea.elpa.gr/news/closeup.php?id=184&cat=35 but it should look completely Greek to you ;) (it is actually art 14.5)

[Rally Hokkaido]

In Japan, crew are allowed two passes for recce.
And they use their rally cars.
Before you all think this would allow some to use recce as practice,
there is one addition to the usual recce restrictions.
All cars must travel in convoy behind a zero car with the sweeper car at the end !

[Duby]

thanks for all the info.

i really would like to know how it goes in FRENCH rallies - both gravel and asphalt .


duby

[Iskald]

If they anyway pass once, I think it would be clever to do own notes, that way you learn to make notes.
To practise making notes else is not so difficult, you can do that driving with your co-driver what ever road.

To make your own pace notes based on one pass trough the stages only, is "an accident waiting to happen". I wouldn`t recommend that for anyone, because it is actually dangerous. And this sport is dangerous enough as it is without playing "russian roulette" with pace notes that you haven`t had the chance to check a second time through. It`s enough with one corner graded inaccurately, and then you are off - into the trees or rocks or whatever.

In Norway we have recce with two passes on every championship rally - and most other events also. A couple of compact tarmac events offer free recce, and some drivers actually tries to memorize the whole route when the stages are relatively short. But as aren`t allowed to do that in every rally, its really of no use. There are small margins between actually remembering every corner - and possibly forgetting one or two important ones.

[duby miller]

how many of you are co-drivers or tried to co-drive a rally ?

[Grany]

thanks for all the info.

i really would like to know how it goes in FRENCH rallies - both gravel and asphalt .


duby

Championnat de France des Rallyes (tarmac): 3 pass.
Championnat de France Terre (gravel): 1 pass.

But in Regional Championship, and only for the tarmac rally, 4 pass recce is allowed.

[Mauri A]

Championnat de France des Rallyes (tarmac): 3 pass.
Championnat de France Terre (gravel): 1 pass.

But in Regional Championship, and only for the tarmac rally, 4 pass recce is allowed.
Oh you youngsters. it was much, much better in the old good days, 60´s and 70´s. Two weeks of practising at least, and it was practising, not "recceing".
This allowed also days and nights to spend together and the drivers were all as a big family, practical jokes and heavy arguing were common.
Of course, in this world no more possible!

[Bjorn240]

how many of you are co-drivers or tried to co-drive a rally ?

I am a co-driver. Kevin has described the situation in the US well, so I don't think I need to add anything.

In a country the size of Israel. I would recommend:

Friday 0700 Recce Registration
Friday 0800 Recce Begins
Friday ~1600 Recce Ends
Friday 1800 Registration
Friday 1900-2200 Scrutineering
Saturday Rally
Sunday Go Home

That will give you plenty of time for 2 pass recce.

- Christian

[raybak]

I think that Christian is quite close with his summary of how you should plan an event. The things that make Recce easier to plan is if there are repeated stages, can make Recce a lot shorter. If you have 6 stages that at least 4 are run twice you have a lot less Recce to do.

I know for the ARC rallies in Australia it is possible to do two passes over the stage in one day as there may only be 10 stages to recce and most of them are under 10km long with only a few over 10km.

Ray