Sainz says rallies are boring....

[gloomyDAY]

Really? (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65194)

I thought the WRC was perfect in every way. Dwindling entries and viewership is an absolute indicator of the rally phenomena.

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

[Shrike]

Still better than nascar :D

[gloomyDAY]

Still better than nascar :D
Yeah, ****ting on a far more successful automotive series is a solution.

How about some thoughts and sensible chatter?

[L5->R5/CR]

Yeah, ****ting on a far more successful automotive series is a solution.

How about some thoughts and sensible chatter?



What is really the point of comparing the two.

The two don't compare. In NASCAR you have institutionalized parity among drivers where the playing field is much more level (everybody is "equal" even though there are teams that are far more equal than others). But what is more is that NASCAR, whether it publicly embraces this or not, is structured to be entertainment first and sport second.

Part of NASCAR's formula for success is that it is built on a cult of personalities. So few NASCAR fans cheer for a driver because they are X nationality or are from Y location. People root for fans because "he is their guy" and that is something that has been fading from the WRC for the last 5 years. There is no parity in the WRC, the events are stale, the drivers personalities are smothered to the point that they don't really connect with the average fan and eventually this leads to dis-interest. NASCAR is fundamentally different in its product, so much so that there isn't much comparison that can be made...

We get glimmers of hope in the WRC from Mikko, Jari Matti, and Gigi but with Bosse gone and Loeb continuing to dominate (and Loeb's attitude and lack of personality, but especially his sour grapes and sore loser behavior at Sweden make him very hard to like). Most of the true Petter fans I know love him for his personality, his heart, and his character, not his championship or the team he drives for. We need more of that in the WRC for the WRC drivers to hit home with the fans. Getting more excitement, more of an exotic feel, and more variety and parity in events will certainly help.

I am a huge rally fan, but the only WRCs that I make a true and genuine effort to watch (ie the only ones I want to watch on my TV, in their entirety) are Sweden/Norway, Finland, and New Zealand (Australia would have been on that list). Even as a fan the coverage is so bland that I'll watch the other shows in chunks whenever I have 10-30 minutes of down time...

[AndyRAC]

I saw this story on ITV Teletext, and I'd have to agree. He was quoted as saying " Rallies used to 'paralyse' a country, now they take place in a corner were nobody know it's taking place" Certainly sounds like he was talking about Rally GB, but could be any country. He's right though, I think we all know that. Sounds like an interesting interview, as was McRae's in the Christmas issue of Motorsport News. Both spoke common sense, are you F1A, ISC listening??

[A.F.F.]

I tried to watch Nascar race the other night but I couldn't. Of course it didn't help that i know nothing about it BUT, if it is so brilliantly marketed indeed, how com I wasn't amazed at once ???

No, it really was as exciting as watching trees grow.

[Tomi]

I agree with him 100%, especially the quantity/quality part, also i dont think it will be better taking events to places where nobady knows what it is about.

[turves]

No, it really was as exciting as watching trees grow.


Cool, Oak tree's are my favourites to watch... :laugh: I must tune in...

I find pretty much all circuit racing boring, with possible exceptions being the Aussie V8's and Champcar (as long as they aren't just going around oversized roundabouts).

I agree with Carlos though. Rallies used to be based in a town/city and branch out around the country. They are boring now. Part of the fun was following an event all around the country. I'm now getting bored of the same old stages with the TV cameras in the same old places.

[AndyRAC]

Cool, Oak tree's are my favourites to watch... :laugh: I must tune in...

I find pretty much all circuit racing boring, with possible exceptions being the Aussie V8's and Champcar (as long as they aren't just going around oversized roundabouts).

I agree with Carlos though. Rallies used to be based in a town/city and branch out around the country. They are boring now. Part of the fun was following an event all around the country. I'm now getting bored of the same old stages with the TV cameras in the same old places.

Strange isn't it, the Rallies were changed to make it easier for TV and media to cover, now there is less coverage than ever. Not only that, less people are interested because it doesn't visit their area anymore. Take the RAC, used to go all over the country and was a National event - now it just a South Wales event, why would Joe Public in Glasgow, Newcastle, Nottingham be interested??

[turves]

Strange isn't it, the Rallies were changed to make it easier for TV and media to cover, now there is less coverage than ever. Not only that, less people are interested because it doesn't visit their area anymore. Take the RAC, used to go all over the country and was a National event - now it just a South Wales event, why would Joe Public in Glasgow, Newcastle, Nottingham be interested??

Exactly, although I live not far south of Nottingham and still go...

I can't say for the other events in the WRC, but the RAC used to be the biggest sporting event in the country, as far as the number of spectators attending the event goes. I doubt very much it is anymore. I used to love trekking up North for a couple of days with my old man, and then back down for a couple of days in Wales, it was an adventure, especially for a kid...

Sadly those days are gone :wave: and we can only dream of them returning :s nore:

[ShiftingGears]

Really? (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65194)

I thought the WRC was perfect in every way. Dwindling entries and viewership is an absolute indicator of the rally phenomena.

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

I do think that rally has been more sanitized for a TV audience and its something I really do not like.
360km limit, with repeated stages- awful idea. Should be between 500-800km. When Sainz first won the championship in 1990, most of the rallies were 600km long give or take 75km. Excluding Ivory Coast and Safari.
And repeated stages are terrible. Not what rally is about.


Of course, FIA could put more effort into WRC than F1. But then again - the collective lack of intellect of the FIA displayed in F1 rulemaking isn't something to be envied.

[Karukera]

Don Carlos knows what he's talking about. Popularity of the sport had already decreased when he started his career, nothing new.

We're living in a strange world where all excitement seems to have gone or is very hard to find/give and where borers bored of everything are growing and multiplying way faster than the previous year.

I'm watching the WRC since i was a lil' kid back in the very late 70's and never found it boring despite rules changes, FIA uturns, who wins or dominates the series and so on.

There still are tons of problems to be solved but still, to me as long as it roars with guts, takes place on free roads between trees, on ice, snow, fog, mud, tarmac, mixed, loose, jumps, Cows, Roos, Kiwis, large crowds of fans, hot Tortillas, grilled steaks or sausages and enjoyable beverages, i'm happy all the way.

WRC rocks !

[AndyRAC]

I do think that rally has been more sanitized for a TV audience and its something I really do not like.
360km limit, with repeated stages- awful idea. Should be between 500-800km. When Sainz first won the championship in 1990, most of the rallies were 600km long give or take 75km. Excluding Ivory Coast and Safari.
And repeated stages are terrible. Not what rally is about.


Of course, FIA could put more effort into WRC than F1. But then again - the collective lack of intellect of the FIA displayed in F1 rulemaking isn't something to be envied.

They F1A can't put more effort into WRC than F1, it just isn't allowed to happen. F1 rules, we all know that. WRC is just a nasty afterthought. When Moseley finishes no doubt we'll get another F1 stooge as President.

[A.F.F.]

Strange isn't it, the Rallies were changed to make it easier for TV and media to cover, now there is less coverage than ever.

I have to disagree strongly on that one.

I also have apologize my earlier talks conserning MTV3 MAX. They finally got the service very good and I have to say that having watched both, Monte and Sweden weekends, I noticed that the coverage is way better than last few years.

Now they don't follow just top drivers but show all WRC cars plus most notable drivers from other classes as well. MTV3 buy the footage but add own interviews and stuff in the middle so basicly what i said above, is available to anyone.

So, coveragewise there has been a big change :up:

[Tomi]

I have to disagree strongly on that one.

I also have apologize my earlier talks conserning MTV3 MAX. They finally got the service very good and I have to say that having watched both, Monte and Sweden weekends, I noticed that the coverage is way better than last few years.

Now they don't follow just top drivers but show all WRC cars plus most notable drivers from other classes as well. MTV3 buy the footage but add own interviews and stuff in the middle so basicly what i said above, is available to anyone.

So, coveragewise there has been a big change :up:

I agree, the coverage is very good now, the 30 min incar special is a good addition also, only thing i miss a bit is a good pre event program.

[DonJippo]

I have to disagree strongly on that one.

I also have apologize my earlier talks conserning MTV3 MAX. They finally got the service very good and I have to say that having watched both, Monte and Sweden weekends, I noticed that the coverage is way better than last few years.

Now they don't follow just top drivers but show all WRC cars plus most notable drivers from other classes as well. MTV3 buy the footage but add own interviews and stuff in the middle so basicly what i said above, is available to anyone.

So, coveragewise there has been a big change :up:

And to give others a view of what kind coverage they provide during the events here is a TV schedule for Rally Sweden on MTV3 & MTV3 MAX channels

Thursday 7.2.
MAX 21.00-22.00 Super Special Stage (live)
Friday 8.2.
MAX 19.30-20.00 Short review of day1
MAX 21.30-21.45 Pre Race
MAX 21.45-22.45 Day 1 review
MAX 22.45-23.00 In Car Special (Day1)
MTV3 01.10-01.40 Day 1 review
Saturday 9.2.
MAX 08.45-09.45 Day 1 review, (re-run)
MAX 09.45-10.00 In Car Special (Day 1 re-run)
MAX 16.00-16.30 Review (SS 9-13)
MTV3 16.55-17.25 Day 2 review (short)
MAX 21.30-21.45 Pre Race
MAX 21.45-22.45 Full Day 2 review
MAX 22.45-23.00 In Car Special (Day2)

Sunday 10.2.
MAX 08.45-09.45 Full Day 2 review (re-run)
MAX 09.45-10.00 In Car Special (Day 2 re-run)
MAX 14.30-15.00 Day 3 reivew (SS 15-19)
MTV3 17.00-17.30 Day 3 review
MAX 20.00-20.15 Pre Race
MAX 20.15-21.15 Full Day 3 review
MAX 21.15-21.30 In Car Special (day3)
MAX 22.30-23.30 Rally Sweden 2008 review
Monday 11.2.
MAX 10.15-11.15 Full Day 3 review (re-run)
MAX 11.15-11.30 In Car Special (Day3 re-run)
MAX 17.00-18.00 Rally Sweden 2008 review (re-run)

(MAX is a pay-TV channel and MTV3 is free, also worth to note that there are no adds on MTV3 MAX)

So all in all we get something like 10 hours of footage in every event plus re-runs but I agree with Tomi that they should improve the pre-event show.

[AndyRAC]

I have to disagree strongly on that one.

I also have apologize my earlier talks conserning MTV3 MAX. They finally got the service very good and I have to say that having watched both, Monte and Sweden weekends, I noticed that the coverage is way better than last few years.

Now they don't follow just top drivers but show all WRC cars plus most notable drivers from other classes as well. MTV3 buy the footage but add own interviews and stuff in the middle so basicly what i said above, is available to anyone.

So, coveragewise there has been a big change :up:

Maybe for Finland, over here the DAVE coverage is okay, doesn't cover anything other than the top 5/6/7 cars. Unlike on the BBC's coverage years ago, it would show the F2/Gp N and the amateurs. However, I wasn't just talking about TV. I meant Radio, papers, magazines - the coverage there is extremely poor.

[Tomi]

I have to say that the new girl who makes the interviews on MTV3 Max knows her business very well too, good questions and its easy to see that she has motorsport background, also the other host is Gardemeisters co-driver so the info from the stages is quite updated stuff.

[A.F.F.]

Maybe for Finland, over here the DAVE coverage is okay, doesn't cover anything other than the top 5/6/7 cars. Unlike on the BBC's coverage years ago, it would show the F2/Gp N and the amateurs. However, I wasn't just talking about TV. I meant Radio, papers, magazines - the coverage there is extremely poor.

That is very unfortunate because MAX proves that there are more coverage available. The other thing is if the channel is willing to air it all.

But you're right. TV alone isn't enough. Other media should support it as well. That is the one thing lacking our national rallying. They get their TV footage but other media mostly ignore it :down:

Why don't you start a petition for better media coverage? Write on every singly public forum about that matter and direct feedback to your media's official webpages. I'm sure you're not alone.

[BDunnell]

Exactly, although I live not far south of Nottingham and still go...

I can't say for the other events in the WRC, but the RAC used to be the biggest sporting event in the country, as far as the number of spectators attending the event goes. I doubt very much it is anymore. I used to love trekking up North for a couple of days with my old man, and then back down for a couple of days in Wales, it was an adventure, especially for a kid...

Sadly those days are gone :wave: and we can only dream of them returning :s nore:

Compare the RAC of 1985 with that of 2007. Yes, there was British interest in 1985 and none in 2007, but the difference between the levels of public attention is still stark. In 1985, the crowds were enormous throughout the whole of a monster route, and there were two nightly TV reports. This was at a time when the WRC as a whole received relatively little coverage in the UK, with 10-15-minute reviews of certain rounds on the BBC, and it generally wasn't all that well marketed. I don't class what we see now as progress.

[jparker]

I agree with him 100%, especially the quantity/quality part, also i dont think it will be better taking events to places where nobady knows what it is about.

Finland will be on rotation, period. Suck it up pal ....

[BDunnell]

But you're right. TV alone isn't enough. Other media should support it as well. That is the one thing lacking our national rallying. They get their TV footage but other media mostly ignore it :down:

In the days long before we all had the internet, when I was a kid and the British Open Championship was virtually as good as the WRC in terms of the entry, I used to be able to check the results of the various events by looking in the sports results bit of my parents' copy of The Guardian. Those days are so long gone now it seems untrue.

[DonJippo]

Finland will be on rotation, period. Suck it up pal ....

Better wait till they confirm the calendar for 2010...

[Shrike]

I agree with Sainz and I hope they make a change sometime soon (dreaming).
but until then, "boogity boogity boogity" :dozey:

[AndyRAC]

Compare the RAC of 1985 with that of 2007. Yes, there was British interest in 1985 and none in 2007, but the difference between the levels of public attention is still stark. In 1985, the crowds were enormous throughout the whole of a monster route, and there were two nightly TV reports. This was at a time when the WRC as a whole received relatively little coverage in the UK, with 10-15-minute reviews of certain rounds on the BBC, and it generally wasn't all that well marketed. I don't class what we see now as progress.

Too true, what about 1995, McRae came third in Sports Review of the Year; unbelievable - virtually no TV coverage apart from the RAC. I remember then papers and Autosport predicting great things for the WRC in terms of coverage for the sport, TV, Radio, papers. Sadly it was a false dawn, Radio stuck with it for a few years, but now nothing. I may be wrong, but I don't think there was a dedicated WRC correspondent for any of the newspapers, they just used their F1 reporters. Agree, here we are 10-15 years later and in fact things aren't any better - in fact I'm still convinced there is still a market for the WRC in Britain, just needs the right encouragement.

[JAM]

I'm in this forum since 2005 and this subject was discussed a lot of times. About the WRC at the moment i have the same opinion that Sainz, and alreadyl had this opinion in the past with many discussions here, with not so many agreements.

Now Sainz spoke and everybody agree. Very good, at least we are going on the right path, and if people from the forum start to understand that WRC is going down, maybe one of next days FIA will understand too... is my hope.

[AndyRAC]

In the days long before we all had the internet, when I was a kid and the British Open Championship was virtually as good as the WRC in terms of the entry, I used to be able to check the results of the various events by looking in the sports results bit of my parents' copy of The Guardian. Those days are so long gone now it seems untrue.

Yeah, and how sad - some of the entry lists for a British Open round were better than a WRC event. Another Championship which has withered and has virtually died. The media coverage of the BRC is now a joke, though saying that I'm not sure each of the rounds really promotes itself fantastically. Take this weekend, the first round of the Ancro/MSA Gravel Championship - Rallye Sunseeker, now that is how a Rally should be promoted, good Rally Radio,etc

[jonkka]

I have to say that the new girl who makes the interviews on MTV3 Max knows her business very well too, good questions and its easy to see that she has motorsport background, also the other host is Gardemeisters co-driver so the info from the stages is quite updated stuff.

Say what? Either we are watching different show (I see only the free stuff, mind you) or one of has very peculiar taste. That girl is plain decor, she should be fired immediately and Tomi Tuominen should either be co-driver or commentator, it is immensely irritating to see him cross-dressing. Given that he is not much of a commentator, it's better that he's actually co-driving these days.

Anyone who's seen Eurosport coverage and heard Jakke Honkanen there should know that good co-driver doesn't necessarily make a good commentator. As much as it grieves me to say this: Jakke is actually quite bad commentator.

Bring back YLE and Tapio Suominen any day.

[jonkka]

Now Sainz spoke and everybody agree. Very good, at least we are going on the right path, and if people from the forum start to understand that WRC is going down, maybe one of next days FIA will understand too... is my hope.

I do not necessarily agree with everything that Sainz says and thinks but I still haven't given up the hope that one day he will take up a high ranking job at FIA. With his experience, dedication and hard-working attitude he would make an excellent successor to Mehta as a head of WRC Commission.

[L5->R5/CR]

I tried to watch Nascar race the other night but I couldn't. Of course it didn't help that i know nothing about it BUT, if it is so brilliantly marketed indeed, how com I wasn't amazed at once ???


NASCARs genius isn't in winning over people that don't like its formula. It is based on winning over people that don't have a huge loyalty. You are a died in the wool rally fan, racing in a circle for 3 hours is never really going to be all that exciting to you (and it isn't necessarily what motivates a lot of the "NASCAR Nation" either). In a lot of ways NASCAR is like WWE pro wrestling on a race track. People don't really buy in to the formula for the action, they buy into the characters and the stories, the action is just what seals the deal.

I think you would have to see the total domination of NASCAR in your home country up close to appreciate the genius that is behind it...

[Tomi]

Say what? Either we are watching different show (I see only the free stuff, mind you) or one of has very peculiar taste. That girl is plain decor, she should be fired immediately and Tomi Tuominen should either be co-driver or commentator, it is immensely irritating to see him cross-dressing. Given that he is not much of a commentator, it's better that he's actually co-driving these days.

Anyone who's seen Eurosport coverage and heard Jakke Honkanen there should know that good co-driver doesn't necessarily make a good commentator. As much as it grieves me to say this: Jakke is actually quite bad commentator.

Bring back YLE and Tapio Suominen any day.

I guess much is same, but its true they dont have much about statistics in the program, the question was not about Tuominen's commentator skills, but to get knowledge about the stages from reliable and from someone who understand what he talk about.

[A.F.F.]

NASCARs genius isn't in winning over people that don't like its formula. It is based on winning over people that don't have a huge loyalty. You are a died in the wool rally fan, racing in a circle for 3 hours is never really going to be all that exciting to you (and it isn't necessarily what motivates a lot of the "NASCAR Nation" either). In a lot of ways NASCAR is like WWE pro wrestling on a race track. People don't really buy in to the formula for the action, they buy into the characters and the stories, the action is just what seals the deal.


:up:

Best post in a while.

[A.F.F.]

Anyone who's seen Eurosport coverage and heard Jakke Honkanen there should know that good co-driver doesn't necessarily make a good commentator. As much as it grieves me to say this: Jakke is actually quite bad commentator.

Bring back YLE and Tapio Suominen any day.


You're not alone jonkka. Jakke maybe a top co-driver but suck at commentating. Which is one of the reasons I sold my souyl to MTV3. I couldn't feel Eurosport anymore.

[jparker]

Better wait till they confirm the calendar for 2010...
True, we may not have one.

[Nenukknak]

Geewhizz, big effin deal, Sainz finally states, what I and several (if not most) others have been saying for years on these forums. Talk about stating the obvious.

I guess it's good that someone as prolific as Sainz speaks its mind, but untill he runs for FIA president, there is little to be cheering for. We need actions not words.

[jonkka]

Aye, but do we agree on cure? Do we even agree on diagnosis of the disease? Or are we simply discontent with the state of affairs?

[Daniel]

Finland will be on rotation, period. Suck it up pal ....

You say that as if you name is Max :rolleyes: You don't know anything more than what any of us know. Why don't you suck that up pal?

[Daniel]

Geewhizz, big effin deal, Sainz finally states, what I and several (if not most) others have been saying for years on these forums. Talk about stating the obvious.

I guess it's good that someone as prolific as Sainz speaks its mind, but untill he runs for FIA president, there is little to be cheering for. We need actions not words.
Very true. We need actions and not rallies in places that want to send money to the FIA.

[Daniel]

I agree with him 100%, especially the quantity/quality part, also i dont think it will be better taking events to places where nobady knows what it is about.

Rally Jordan here we come. Is DonJippo renting a tent for the rally? Does anyone know how to ride a camel? So many things to sort out before the glorious Rally of Jordan.

[A.F.F.]

Rally Jordan here we come. Is DonJippo renting a tent for the rally? Does anyone know how to ride a camel? So many things to sort out before the glorious Rally of Jordan.

Yep I know, like what sauce I want on my kebab, hot or mild ?

[Tomi]

Rally Jordan here we come. Is DonJippo renting a tent for the rally? Does anyone know how to ride a camel? So many things to sort out before the glorious Rally of Jordan.
Lol :)

[BDunnell]

Too true, what about 1995, McRae came third in Sports Review of the Year; unbelievable - virtually no TV coverage apart from the RAC. I remember then papers and Autosport predicting great things for the WRC in terms of coverage for the sport, TV, Radio, papers. Sadly it was a false dawn, Radio stuck with it for a few years, but now nothing. I may be wrong, but I don't think there was a dedicated WRC correspondent for any of the newspapers, they just used their F1 reporters. Agree, here we are 10-15 years later and in fact things aren't any better - in fact I'm still convinced there is still a market for the WRC in Britain, just needs the right encouragement.

And I feel that the example of Lewis Hamilton in F1 proves that it may now need a British driver, although some have said that this doesn't come into it much.

I certainly recall the British newspapers reporting on the WRC much more in the 1990s than they do now, and not just the RAC, but it was never a huge amount. I'm sure some did use specific correspondents, though I may be wrong. Let's not forget either that the broadcast coverage of world rallying in what we like to think of as the 'glory days' was very patchy. The best efforts were certainly those of the BBC in the mid- to late 1990s, with Mark James. No gimmicks, just good, solid coverage.

[BDunnell]

Yeah, and how sad - some of the entry lists for a British Open round were better than a WRC event. Another Championship which has withered and has virtually died. The media coverage of the BRC is now a joke, though saying that I'm not sure each of the rounds really promotes itself fantastically. Take this weekend, the first round of the Ancro/MSA Gravel Championship - Rallye Sunseeker, now that is how a Rally should be promoted, good Rally Radio,etc

It passed me by, though.

British rallying doesn't deserve widespread media coverage any more. When you had Mikkola, Vatanen, Toivonen and Blomqvist competing against the likes of Jimmy McRae, Russell Brookes, Malcolm Wilson and Tony Pond, that was something worth showing. The early Group A years were worth showing — 1987 was a tremendous British championship season. The F2 days of the late 1990s were its last hurrah. I'm afraid we'll never see anything like those days again, because there's no way top drivers and top teams will ever compete in a domestic rally championship.

[Brother John]

I agree with Sainz but we rally freaks keep on going to that boring rallys! :D ;)

[Tomi]

I agree with Sainz but we rally freaks keep on going to that boring rallys! :D ;)

Dont go to the lousy ones, stay to the good ones ;)

[A.F.F.]

It passed me by, though.

British rallying doesn't deserve widespread media coverage any more. When you had Mikkola, Vatanen, Toivonen and Blomqvist competing against the likes of Jimmy McRae, Russell Brookes, Malcolm Wilson and Tony Pond, that was something worth showing. The early Group A years were worth showing — 1987 was a tremendous British championship season. The F2 days of the late 1990s were its last hurrah. I'm afraid we'll never see anything like those days again, because there's no way top drivers and top teams will ever compete in a domestic rally championship.

Unfortunately you're most probably quite right. British championship was worthy but not anymore. Back in old days it was a route to the absolute top. Now the route is different. And I'm not even going to mention teams.

[jparker]

You say that as if you name is Max :rolleyes: You don't know anything more than what any of us know. Why don't you suck that up pal?
True, that's why I think Tomi is acting kind of wired on that topic.

[Daniel]

True, that's why I think Tomi is acting kind of wired on that topic.
Perhaps Tomi talks to people who actually know something and is not pretending to know stuff or simply regurgitating something he read on a rally site? :laugh: You seem to have forgot that Finland is the land of rallying and people do talk to each other there :)

[Daniel]

It passed me by, though.

British rallying doesn't deserve widespread media coverage any more. When you had Mikkola, Vatanen, Toivonen and Blomqvist competing against the likes of Jimmy McRae, Russell Brookes, Malcolm Wilson and Tony Pond, that was something worth showing. The early Group A years were worth showing — 1987 was a tremendous British championship season. The F2 days of the late 1990s were its last hurrah. I'm afraid we'll never see anything like those days again, because there's no way top drivers and top teams will ever compete in a domestic rally championship.

I remember spending my teens wishing I could go to BRC events because they looked so fantastic back in the F2 days. Now I've been here for 19 months and I've gone to the Cambrian Rally twice purely because it's a fairly local event. I personally think the only way for the BRC to get those days back is for there to be a class of competition that is cheap to compete in, fast and looks good. F2 was those things back then because the WRC was on the rise so the BRC got some of the benefits of a healthy WRC. I personally think the WRC should shun things like carbon fibre and expensive materials and go very much back to basics with 2wd cars with big and cheaply built engines tuned for reliability (control engine perhaps? Who cares about the engine really these days) which put out enough power to get the things sideways. At the end of the day what made the WRC great was talent. Yeah you had guys like Rautenbach, Barratt and Antony Warmbold back in the 90's but you had so much talent coming up. Sure there are good drivers about now. But there aren't an abundance of them.


And I feel that the example of Lewis Hamilton in F1 proves that it may now need a British driver, although some have said that this doesn't come into it much.

I certainly recall the British newspapers reporting on the WRC much more in the 1990s than they do now, and not just the RAC, but it was never a huge amount. I'm sure some did use specific correspondents, though I may be wrong. Let's not forget either that the broadcast coverage of world rallying in what we like to think of as the 'glory days' was very patchy. The best efforts were certainly those of the BBC in the mid- to late 1990s, with Mark James. No gimmicks, just good, solid coverage.

Don't forget Greg Brain too :)

Problem is this is not the mid 90's. For a sport to succeed it has to have good media coverage. Perhaps most people are just too lazy to go out to events and enjoy them and need to be able to watch from their sofa at home? I thought the SSS on the Monte was great (as a TV stage) but did I see it on the TV? No :mark: I had to watch it on Caroline's PC which thankfully is in the lounge so I could sit on the couch :p

The WRC needs to become a couch potato sport yet keep what makes it rallying somehow. Any ideas how?

My idea. Cameras on stage, (competent!!!!!!!) commentators at stage ends/starts and in the studio (sod off becs and paul!) and just a bit of effort to make it perhaps a bit easier to understand for the everyday person without having James Allen describe the basics of what a wheel or a tyre is 10 times during each rally.

[Tomi]

And I feel that the example of Lewis Hamilton in F1 proves that it may now need a British driver, although some have said that this doesn't come into it much.

I belive you are right, the same thing you can see elsewhere, like in Sweden too, after they did not have a proper driver in the WRC the media lost the intrest, thats how it works, now when sweden has Andersson the media will maybe be more intrested again.

[BDunnell]

I remember spending my teens wishing I could go to BRC events because they looked so fantastic back in the F2 days.

Yes, those days were very good, but — and I hate to say things like this, because I don't want to sound like an old fogey, but it is true — they weren't a patch on the 1980s! Today's equivalent would involve Loeb, Hirvonen and Solberg up against people like Wilks, McShea and Higgins, and all able to compete against one another, because the British Open series of old used to see the top British drivers of the day going head-to-head with the top WRC names. That's never going to happen again.

Interestingly, the reason why the British Open series started to hit those heights was that some bright spark within the RAC MSA, in conjunction with Ford, decided to persuade some of the top Scandinavians to take out British competition licences.


I personally think the only way for the BRC to get those days back is for there to be a class of competition that is cheap to compete in, fast and looks good. F2 was those things back then because the WRC was on the rise so the BRC got some of the benefits of a healthy WRC. I personally think the WRC should shun things like carbon fibre and expensive materials and go very much back to basics with 2wd cars with big and cheaply built engines tuned for reliability (control engine perhaps? Who cares about the engine really these days) which put out enough power to get the things sideways.

I generally agree with you about the cars, though I think a control engine would be going a bit far, as I'm sure manufacturers would rather be able to use engines based on those in their own model range.

The problem, of course, is development. Because of the loss of Group B and the sudden contrast between those cars and the ones that followed, I'm not sure many people in the higher echelons of the sport and indeed below realised what a good thing they had when, for a brief period, a brilliantly-driven Renault 11 Turbo could compete against a 4wd Lancia Delta HF Turbo while giving away over 100bhp, or indeed when a brilliantly-driven Kadett GSi could compete against a Sierra Cosworth when also giving away over 100bhp. I loved that, and it would be brilliant to see today. But technological developments followed and made that level of competition a thing of the past.

With hindsight, F2 was great too. In the brilliantly competitive British series, it gave good works drives to some very talented drivers who otherwise wouldn't have got into a works team because they weren't well enough funded — indeed, many of them have since faded from prominence. Of course, the cars were fantastic as well.



Problem is this is not the mid 90's. For a sport to succeed it has to have good media coverage. Perhaps most people are just too lazy to go out to events and enjoy them and need to be able to watch from their sofa at home? I thought the SSS on the Monte was great (as a TV stage) but did I see it on the TV? No :mark: I had to watch it on Caroline's PC which thankfully is in the lounge so I could sit on the couch :p

The WRC needs to become a couch potato sport yet keep what makes it rallying somehow. Any ideas how?

My idea. Cameras on stage, (competent!!!!!!!) commentators at stage ends/starts and in the studio (sod off becs and paul!) and just a bit of effort to make it perhaps a bit easier to understand for the everyday person without having James Allen describe the basics of what a wheel or a tyre is 10 times during each rally.

You are right. Times have changed, and with them the expectations of the audience.

I think there is a danger in 'packaging' rallying for TV of losing the essential nature of the competition, and thus the drama, that's inherent in the sport. The attempts to make it look like racing, with the split times, split screens and so on, doesn't work because it's simply not as exciting as racing. On recorded coverage, I think it's a complete bore. A 'back to basics' approach might be better. People soon see through attempts to make things into things they aren't. On-board footage is an absolute must, and the editing should surely be pretty snappy.

Other than that, I really have no idea. Maybe I just think that rallying isn't really TV-friendly and that efforts to make it so would all dilute the nature of the sport too much.

[Daniel]

Yes, those days were very good, but — and I hate to say things like this, because I don't want to sound like an old fogey, but it is true — they weren't a patch on the 1980s! Today's equivalent would involve Loeb, Hirvonen and Solberg up against people like Wilks, McShea and Higgins, and all able to compete against one another, because the British Open series of old used to see the top British drivers of the day going head-to-head with the top WRC names. That's never going to happen again.

Interestingly, the reason why the British Open series started to hit those heights was that some bright spark within the RAC MSA, in conjunction with Ford, decided to persuade some of the top Scandinavians to take out British competition licences.



I generally agree with you about the cars, though I think a control engine would be going a bit far, as I'm sure manufacturers would rather be able to use engines based on those in their own model range.

The problem, of course, is development. Because of the loss of Group B and the sudden contrast between those cars and the ones that followed, I'm not sure many people in the higher echelons of the sport and indeed below realised what a good thing they had when, for a brief period, a brilliantly-driven Renault 11 Turbo could compete against a 4wd Lancia Delta HF Turbo while giving away over 100bhp, or indeed when a brilliantly-driven Kadett GSi could compete against a Sierra Cosworth when also giving away over 100bhp. I loved that, and it would be brilliant to see today. But technological developments followed and made that level of competition a thing of the past.

With hindsight, F2 was great too. In the brilliantly competitive British series, it gave good works drives to some very talented drivers who otherwise wouldn't have got into a works team because they weren't well enough funded — indeed, many of them have since faded from prominence. Of course, the cars were fantastic as well.



You are right. Times have changed, and with them the expectations of the audience.

I think there is a danger in 'packaging' rallying for TV of losing the essential nature of the competition, and thus the drama, that's inherent in the sport. The attempts to make it look like racing, with the split times, split screens and so on, doesn't work because it's simply not as exciting as racing. On recorded coverage, I think it's a complete bore. A 'back to basics' approach might be better. People soon see through attempts to make things into things they aren't. On-board footage is an absolute must, and the editing should surely be pretty snappy.

Other than that, I really have no idea. Maybe I just think that rallying isn't really TV-friendly and that efforts to make it so would all dilute the nature of the sport too much.

The only reason I mentioned a control engine is because they're all limited by restrictor anyway. Plus who buys a car these days because of how the engine seems to perform in the WRCar. The C4 VTS is limpwristed at best in road form even with 180bhp, the Focus has a 5 pot, the SX4 is a mini-4x4 and the Subaru has a 2.5 in road form. I sure as hell don't care how the engine performs in the WRCar. So why not make it cheaper by developing a cheap 2.5 v6 NA engine which puts out a bit of HP and revs it's balls off.

Attempting to make pre-recorded footage live is a big mistake. Having someone as boring as Paul King doing it makes it even worse. If you're going to pretend it's live have someone as enthusiastic as Murray Walker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdKfb-b3Zts
Watch for the bit of footage at about 4:20 (Pentti will thank me for this :) )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQKuqNYe7oQ

I don't think rallying should shape itself around footage at all. I do think though that they could show one or two stages a day and just by having an interesting commentator they could get a lot more people interesting. Get Charlie Watts I say ;) Anyone who says "He needed that like a third armpit" when a rider goes off in MotoGP is alright by me :)

[Tomi]

Watch for the bit of footage at about 4:20 (Pentti will thank me for this :) )


It looks nice, but why is he driving so bloody slow :)

[Daniel]

It looks nice, but why is he driving so bloody slow :)
Probably dragging one foot on the brake and one foot on the accelerator or something :crazy: :)

[Tomi]

Probably dragging one foot on the brake and one foot on the accelerator or something :crazy: :)

Propably, but nice pass in the corner.

[ste898]

Every word that Carlos said is ttue............Dave Richards and FIA together have destroyed the WRC!!!

[ShiftingGears]

That Murray Walker RAC video proved just how unnecessary the split screen, Neil Cole and virtual spectator are in WRC broadcasts.

[Daniel]

That Murray Walker RAC video proved just how unnecessary the split screen, Neil Cole and virtual spectator are in WRC broadcasts.
Which was the point of my post :)

Was just looking through some BRC F2 stuff. What struck me about this clip was how little of the commentator you hear and they've just let the footage tell the story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOZtq8FfGDg

Have a guy like Murray Walker or have someone who is minimally involved I say! To be fair to Neil Cole he's actually not that bad. It's Paul King that's doing most of the commentary and he's boring.

[AndyRAC]

Which was the point of my post :)

Was just looking through some BRC F2 stuff. What struck me about this clip was how little of the commentator you hear and they've just let the footage tell the story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOZtq8FfGDg

Have a guy like Murray Walker or have someone who is minimally involved I say! To be fair to Neil Cole he's actually not that bad. It's Paul King that's doing most of the commentary and he's boring.

Paul King, aaagh, someone please tell him to shut up. And even worse talking over the 'in-car' coverage - I want to hear the notes. Just look at the old BBC coverage with Mark James- isn't that when BBC Worldwide did the coverage, before ISC took over?

[Josti]

Have a guy like Murray Walker or have someone who is minimally involved I say! To be fair to Neil Cole he's actually not that bad. It's Paul King that's doing most of the commentary and he's boring.

One to mention is Steve Rider I think. He did some good voice-overs on various documentary's and with BBC on the RAC till not so long ago. He's a kind of person who knows where he's talking about.

Doesn't matter for me anyway, since I have to deal with Dutch speaking voice-overs. Overall, Eurosport still has lousy commentators (not to mention a 25 minute crappy coverage). Though we have a national rallyprogram here, hosted by someone who's been involved in rallying for years, so that's a good thing. Only this program is mainly focused on national and European rally's.

[BDunnell]

One to mention is Steve Rider I think. He did some good voice-overs on various documentary's and with BBC on the RAC till not so long ago. He's a kind of person who knows where he's talking about.

He did do a very good job. So did another enthusiast, good old Dickie Davies on ITV. I will always enjoy his description of Lasse Lampi as 'a consistent, rather than kamikaze performer'.

[ShiftingGears]

To be fair to Neil Cole he's actually not that bad. It's Paul King that's doing most of the commentary and he's boring.


My mistake - we don't have Cole on free to air. King was who I was referring to. God he's awful.

[janneppi]

You're not alone jonkka. Jakke maybe a top co-driver but suck at commentating. Which is one of the reasons I sold my souyl to MTV3. I couldn't feel Eurosport anymore.
Your soul just got 5 eur/month more expensive, do you feel it now? ;) :p

[Daniel]

Your soul just got 5 eur/month more expensive, do you feel it now? ;) :p
AFF's soul is rented? Now it all begins to make sense :devil:

[DonJippo]

Your soul just got 5 eur/month more expensive, do you feel it now? ;) :p

Not necessarily, depends what package you have ;)

[jonkka]

Your soul just got 5 eur/month more expensive, do you feel it now? ;) :p

(maniacal laugher)

[A.F.F.]

Your soul just got 5 eur/month more expensive, do you feel it now? ;) :p

I got that kind of cash. That's why I drive a car and you a bicycle.

[Daniel]

I got that kind of cash. That's why I drive a car and you a bicycle.
:rotflmao:

[janneppi]

I got that kind of cash. That's why I drive a car and you a bicycle.
Hey, you leave my Erin out of this!

Then again, I really haven't got the cash, digi day is looming and I haven't got box to put it yet, Might have to stick to just one tv from now on, and I can't see my flat mate getting a pay card on his device. 600 Eur+ 15/month is rather steep for me.

[A.F.F.]

Hey, you leave my Erin out of this!

Then again, I really haven't got the cash, digi day is looming and I haven't got box to put it yet, Might have to stick to just one tv from now on, and I can't see my flat mate getting a pay card on his device. 600 Eur+ 15/month is rather steep for me.


You know it's not just WRC and F1. With that extra 5 € you get Tyra Banks. How do you like them apples?? Fierce, eh ? ;)

[Ramone]

Sainz is right.

[gloomyDAY]

I got that kind of cash. That's why I drive a car and you a bicycle.HAHA! I nearly wet myself.