Subaru S12B to change suspension

[Sulland]

In this weeks Autosport SWRT is saying that they are changing suspension from BOS to Reiger, or modify the BOS to as close to Reiger as possible.

They looked at Østberg's pace in Sweden, and saw what Reiger had done for his car. They thought he got too close to their factory drivers.

They hope they can have this ready for Mexico, and will do a 4 day test in Spain to prepare.

Petter says: If we are getting this sorted out, I can attack again. I have been waiting to attack for two years !
According to Richards they hope to fight at the top in Mexico an the round after if this move is a success !

Lets hope they can sort it out !!!

[MJW]

I found it quite strange that as soon as Tommi Makinen left SWRT and established Tommi Makinen racing, his cars used, Reiger and Michelin, when the factory cars were on Sachs dampers at the time and Pirelli tyres. SWRT did change from Sachs to BOS dampers in 2006, around the time FX was engineering. For those that do not know BOS are a French company who came from mountain biking shock absorbers.

[ProRally]

I thought that Ford has exclusivity on Reiger in WRC (factory team) ?
LONG time ago Ford started with Reiger and deal was the they would be the ONLY ones to use it as a manufacturer in WRC....
Maybe there was time limit...
What is Suzuki using ?

[dimviii]

in last year Acropolis, Citroen and Subaru had BOS suspensions, but only Subaru had problems with them in Acropolis.

[Mirek]

ProRally: Skoda used Reiger as well...

[DonJippo]

I thought that Ford has exclusivity on Reiger in WRC (factory team) ?
LONG time ago Ford started with Reiger and deal was the they would be the ONLY ones to use it as a manufacturer in WRC....
Maybe there was time limit...
What is Suzuki using ?

Suzuki is using Reiger.

[alleskids]

Reiger is conquering the world :) . I believe they started with a test session on the Ford of Mohammed Ben Sulayem many years ago, and after only a couple of kilometres he convinced Malcolm Wilson to use only Reiger.

[WRXedUSA]

Does RSSP make a WRC suspension? People say they work wonders for GroupN cars here.

Rieger had a few notable failures last year with ford.

[Glee]

As mutch as I hope that a change of suspension will bring Subaru back to the top, I also hope not: Several years of misery just because of wrong suspension (witch can be changed without homogenization) would just be tragic.

[DonJippo]

As mutch as I hope that a change of suspension will bring Subaru back to the top, I also hope not: Several years of misery just because of wrong suspension (witch can be changed without homogenization) would just be tragic.

I agree, I mean if this makes the car a winner again it really makes the team look even worse from what it is now.

[N.O.T]

Desparate sitautions call for desparate measures......

[Nenukknak]

SWRT would become the joke of the century if this chance transforms their car into a winner. If not they will just remain the joke of the decade :p

[alleskids]

Was it not the same with the Peugeot 307 WRC ? Markko Martin wanted an other suspencion, and the car became much better to handle and faster to drive. All non factory 307's are much better to drive than the factory cars were.

[Brother John]

They looked at Østberg's pace in Sweden, and saw what Reiger had done for his car. They thought he got too close to their factory drivers.!!!

That´s the first thing we saw on the shakedown in Sweden! We talkt about that when they passed!
Why a factory team needs years to find out what a privat team solve in a couple weeks?
They had the Monte Carlo car from Petter!
If the results improve now then SWRT would become certain the joke of the century. My god, what a failure for the team from Prodrive.

[Abarth]

What options are there out there for rally suspension, and who uses what ?

BOS
Reiger
Proflex
Øhlins
Sachs

And ?

[MJW]

To be fair the bad times started in SWRT in 2005, went worse in 2006 when active diffs were banned - I believe the active was masking some of the problems in the 05 car. This may be because it was designed with a lot of race car influences. A significant number of these issues were homologated and could not be changed. I am also convinced that the F1 project and the fact that there were so many race guys in positions of influence, both Ed Wood and Steve Farrell were race guys not rally guys also contributed to the dismal performance. When FX was engineer to Petter he brought a change to French made dampers, I suppose a partial improvement as despite the bad overall showing S12 & S12B have put up some ocassional fast stage times - notably Atko beating Loeb by 8 seconds in Monte 08. It will be interesting to see how (if it happens) the Reiger suspension works. Petter has continually complained of lack of traction, that to me, if not diff related is damper related. All in all there have been a lot of factors that caused the problems of the last few years. IF S12B works with Reigers it will be a cumulation of a lot of changes not just dampers. People like Graham Moore back in engineering have an impact on a teams performance. There must be something significant for SWRT to do a 4 day test in Spain on the "old car" when just before Monte DR said a line had been drawn in the sand and that no more testing / development would be made on that car.

[Abarth]

But as far I understood they are planning to use the same brand of suspension on the S14, so if they now find that that one has limitations on the old car, that knowledge will of course be taken across to the S14 !

[Buzz Lightyear]

"Just before Monte DR said a line had been drawn in the sand and that no more testing / development would be made on that car.

So who is in charge then, if they are now planning a 4 day test now?

[c4]

So who is in charge then, if they are now planning a 4 day test now?

Always planned one final test (gravel) for S12b prior to Mexico (this week in Spain) then all testing and development would shift to new car.

[kleisj]

Well as was said in the beginning if this proves to be the solution for the Subaru probs I think the people responsible for the development must feel really stupid! And maybe they are... Is inconceivable to say the least that a change of suspension makes the Subaru competitive again....!
But maybe they have to wonder if the performance of Ostberg was due to additional motives and nothing more, something that Peter and Chris are lacking for long time now!

[Viking]

To be fair the bad times started in SWRT in 2005, went worse in 2006 when active diffs were banned - I believe the active was masking some of the problems in the 05 car.

Exactly! Problems started with the wide-track 05 model, and active diffs was making the car somewhat better. I remember having read somewhere that one of the problems is that you cant (rules) move the top mounting point of the suspension, so the angels of the struts in the front suspension is not good. What they need is another and wider base model.

[[WRCRR]]

If the change to Reiger will significantly better the pace of the Subarus, then it really is time to move the operation from Prodrive to TMR...I mean...how can a "professional" team be so lost for so many years...

[bt52b]

Eugene Donnelly's Corrolla used to run on Reiger, will be interesting to see if he switches the Subaru to use them too.

Doubt SWRT will do much better until the S14 is ready.

[N.O.T]

I think that this deal is based more on financial grounds than performance ones.....

[alleskids]

Reiger is not paying anyone, they are being paid by every client, incuding the Kamaz truck team from the Dakar rally. I thing SWRT is desperate to change everything, hoping it will solve the speed and behave problem of the cars. And seeing how good Ostberg did on Reiger, it is worth the guess.

[N.O.T]

Reiger is not paying anyone, they are being paid by every client, incuding the Kamaz truck team from the Dakar rally. I thing SWRT is desperate to change everything, hoping it will solve the speed and behave problem of the cars. And seeing how good Ostberg did on Reiger, it is worth the guess.

I am not saying thet reiger payed them.....they might offered them a better deal...

As for Ostberg...i remember the same thing when the subarus were on pirellis, everyone blamed the tyres....

THE CAR IS JUST WRONG !!!!! no suspension,tyres and other peripherals will change than...

[Tomi]

I am not saying thet reiger payed them.....they might offered them a better deal...

As for Ostberg...i remember the same thing when the subarus were on pirellis, everyone blamed the tyres....

THE CAR IS JUST WRONG !!!!! no suspension,tyres and other peripherals will change than...

I belive the same, they might find some small advantages, but there is for sure something more wrong than the suspension.

[Helstar]

As for Ostberg...i remember the same thing when the subarus were on pirellis, everyone blamed the tyres....
THE CAR IS JUST WRONG !!!!! no suspension,tyres and other peripherals will change than...
Totally agree http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Mirek]

Many small issues makes one big problem. It's not hard to find quite many of that small even at first sight. They have longitudinal engine infront of front axle - bad, big car - bad, big car on a small wheelbase - even worse, maybe bad dampers, 4 door car - bad and I don't think that using boxer engine is good too...

[WRXedUSA]

The current shape Impreza was built for rules that are now outmoded.

That's all that can be said for the lackluster performance.

[DonJippo]

The current shape Impreza was built for rules that are now outmoded.

Have technical rules changed that much? What I mean is like Mirek is saying the car has features that are more related to physics than any technical rules.

[Viking]

Reiger is not paying anyone, they are being paid by every client, incuding the Kamaz truck team from the Dakar rally. I thing SWRT is desperate to change everything, hoping it will solve the speed and behave problem of the cars. And seeing how good Ostberg did on Reiger, it is worth the guess.

The reason for Østbergs pace (look in the center panel): :D

http://www.madsostberg.no/image.php?cat=20080216&file=0127.jpg

[MJW]

That is very funny considering how Mads "lost" a rally car.............

[leno]

So when will subaru test/compare these new suspensions with older ones

[Mickey T]

So when will subaru test/compare these new suspensions with older ones

you don't think they already have?

[MJW]

Test was last week in Spain

[OldF]

Maybe some of you have watched “Engineering the world rally” (from season 2006, 6 episodes) at discovery channel. IMO this program reveals with how huge problems their where struggling with. In the last episode from Wales Steve Farrell told that they had probably located the handling problem to a friction problem in the suspension. But, the 2006 season was also the first one with mechanical front and rear differentials and the 2007 season was no better.

There were also some interesting figures:
Team budget = 50 million euros
170 full time workers
Gearbox = 100.000 euros
Chassis = 75.000 euros and 780 hours to finish.

[WRXedUSA]

Have technical rules changed that much? What I mean is like Mirek is saying the car has features that are more related to physics than any technical rules.

The car was a monster during the time of active front and rear diffs. Now they have to try to make a widebody impreza work with passive units. I remember watching Atkinson and Solberg in Sweden after that rule change thinking to myself "Man, this is going to be a LONG year"

[ZequeArgentina]

Does RSSP make a WRC suspension? People say they work wonders for GroupN cars here.

Rieger had a few notable failures last year with ford.

Nope, only for group N.
Those RSSP suspenssion are mad by Argeninean Barattero (now Baratec), that suspenssion work and 2005 PWRC Championship, made Subaru contract Barattero as a STI developer (same as Prodrive, Arai, Makinen, Top Run and someone else I forgot).
With new Subaru, RSSP was encharged of developing gravel suspenssion, and RSSP shocks are provided with STI brand worldwide, but no. No WRC is made by them.

[DonJippo]

So when will subaru test/compare these new suspensions with older ones

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=371&desc=Lapworth%20on%20Subaru%20test:%20%E2%80%98We% 20made%20some%20good%20steps%E2%80%99

[Viktory]

well... the new suspension seems to have worked quite well.

[N.O.T]

yes especially when you let others clear the road for you.....

[DonJippo]

Anyone know if they were using Reigers dampers? Any close up pics of Subaru's suspension in Mexico?

[koko0703]

I think the new suspension was an improvement but I think there is still a long way to catch Citroen and Ford. I hope they will continue to find more improvements on the car, and hopefully the new WRC2008 will be a contender for the top of the podium.

[Abarth]

I think the new suspension was an improvement but I think there is still a long way to catch Citroen and Ford. I hope they will continue to find more improvements on the car, and hopefully the new WRC2008 will be a contender for the top of the podium.


AS far as I know they did not use reiger, bot slightly mod of the ones thay have had for a few years.

This probably have to do with contracts and a whole myriad of lawyers !

But they should ask Ostberg to borrow his car for a few weeks for comparison tests, or hire him as a testdriver....
If the Sub leadership had balls, they would bolt in Reiger on the new S14 ASAP !

[Jaanus]

I can confirm Subaru used BOS suspension in Mexico, because the Reiger they were offered were not the same level as Ford have, but much older models that are also used by Suzuki and Ostberg.
The info comes from a reliable source.

[Daniel]

This sucks. Citroen had their exclusive deal with Kinetic and that got banned. Now Ford have an agreement with Reiger. Reiger's product should be banned from the WRC if Ford don't want to allow a third part supplier to supply a product to another team. Imagine the outrage if Pirelli were to supply second rate tyres to one team and give another the good stuff. If Ford wants to buy Reiger that's great but as long as they're a third party I think anyone should be able to get their best product from them.

[Abarth]

I can confirm Subaru used BOS suspension in Mexico, because the Reiger they were offered were not the same level as Ford have, but much older models that are also used by Suzuki and Ostberg.
The info comes from a reliable source.


If the old Reigers are better that new BOS - Go for it !

[L5->R5/CR]

This sucks. Citroen had their exclusive deal with Kinetic and that got banned. Now Ford have an agreement with Reiger. Reiger's product should be banned from the WRC if Ford don't want to allow a third part supplier to supply a product to another team. Imagine the outrage if Pirelli were to supply second rate tyres to one team and give another the good stuff. If Ford wants to buy Reiger that's great but as long as they're a third party I think anyone should be able to get their best product from them.


Companies get to sign contracts.


If Reiger signed an exclusive contract why should they have to break it?

Maybe Ford is paying Reiger a lot of extra money for the exclusivity? We don't know the terms of the deal so why not criticize Subaru for making a bad deal instead of Ford/Reiger for making a potentially good deal?

[Daniel]

Companies get to sign contracts.


If Reiger signed an exclusive contract why should they have to break it?

Maybe Ford is paying Reiger a lot of extra money for the exclusivity? We don't know the terms of the deal so why not criticize Subaru for making a bad deal instead of Ford/Reiger for making a potentially good deal?

I'm sure Citroen was paying Kinetic a lot of money too. Don't share your toys and the FIA will ban your toys. I don't think in things like suspension a company which is not under the umbrella of a works team should be able to pick and choose who it sells it's best product to. The WRC shouldn't be about buying your way to having other teams being uncompetitive.

I don't agree with these exclusivity agreements on generic components. What if Garret came out and gave Citroen a better turbo with 20bhp more and wouldn't supply it to anyone else? Would you feel the same way? :mark:

[L5->R5/CR]

I'm sure Citroen was paying Kinetic a lot of money too. Don't share your toys and the FIA will ban your toys. I don't think in things like suspension a company which is not under the umbrella of a works team should be able to pick and choose who it sells it's best product to. The WRC shouldn't be about buying your way to having other teams being uncompetitive.

I don't agree with these exclusivity agreements on generic components. What if Garret came out and gave Citroen a better turbo with 20bhp more and wouldn't supply it to anyone else? Would you feel the same way? :mark:

I would feel the same way as long as the other teams could go to a different turbo maker to try and find someone that can make the new "holy grail" turbo.

As long as teams can partner with any supplier that they see fit I see no problem with teams forming exclusive partnerships in an attempt to develop a more perfect product and thus a competitive advantage.

Reiger doesn't necessarily do anything "super double secret" for M-Sport that anyone else couldn't figure out and do for a different manufacturer. Who knows, maybe Reiger and M-Sport are sharing some engineering staff and resources, maybe part of what is making the Reigers so good is in part contributions (other than cash) from M-Sport to Reiger for the suspension on the Focuses. We don't know.

If M-Sport and Reiger have figured out something new with regards to a way to optimizes dampner design relative to car design through their partnership then they should stand to reap those rewards. And yes, if Garret and Citroen found a new way to design a turbo to be more optimal and accordingly produce more power on a WRCar then they should bare the fruit of that relationship.

[kleisj]

Is quite impressive that a top WRC team suffers to find a top suspension product to improve performance.