Honda found a bug in the McLaren CPU?

[mstillhere]

I read in an other F1 site that Honda found a bug in the CPU made by McLAren. (I requested a link to verify teh news). According to this article published by Autospint, by pushing 3 buttons at the same time the electronic system is able to override some of the parameters set in the system and allows the car to have a super fast start. Way fast. The question is: is McLaren aware of it and is McLaren aware of other bypasses that would give them an unfair advantge oder their adversaries?
Now, since I don't have the article in front of me and I have not seen nor heard any major news media mentioning it, I have my reservations about the trueness of this news, although, I have to confess, a little voice in my head screams that it is all true. While I am waiting for a link or copy of this aricle, again published by Autosprint, I wonder if anyone on this panel has any info on this matter.

[Tazio]

I read in an other F1 site that Honda found a bug in the CPU made by McLAren. (I requested a link to verify teh news). According to this article published by Autospint, by pushing 3 buttons at the same time the electronic system is able to override some of the parameters set in the system and allows the car to have a super fast start. Way fast. The question is: is McLaren aware of it and is McLaren aware of other bypasses that would give them an unfair advantge oder their adversaries?
Now, since I don't have the article in front of me and I have not seen nor heard any major news media mentioning it, I have my reservations about the trueness of this news, although, I have to confess, a little voice in my head screams that it is all true. While I am waiting for a link or copy of this aricle, again published by Autosprint, I wonder if anyone on this panel has any info on this matter.
Nigel Stepney sabotaged it with help from Ron!

[blakebeatty]

I read in an other F1 site that Honda found a bug in the CPU made by McLAren. (I requested a link to verify teh news). According to this article published by Autospint, by pushing 3 buttons at the same time the electronic system is able to override some of the parameters set in the system and allows the car to have a super fast start. Way fast. The question is: is McLaren aware of it and is McLaren aware of other bypasses that would give them an unfair advantge oder their adversaries?
Now, since I don't have the article in front of me and I have not seen nor heard any major news media mentioning it, I have my reservations about the trueness of this news, although, I have to confess, a little voice in my head screams that it is all true. While I am waiting for a link or copy of this aricle, again published by Autosprint, I wonder if anyone on this panel has any info on this matter.

I cannot fathom, after all that has transpired, that they would be this stupid.

[mstillhere]

I read in an other F1 site that Honda found a bug in the CPU made by McLAren. (I requested a link to verify teh news). According to this article published by Autospint, by pushing 3 buttons at the same time the electronic system is able to override some of the parameters set in the system and allows the car to have a super fast start. Way fast. The question is: is McLaren aware of it and is McLaren aware of other bypasses that would give them an unfair advantge oder their adversaries?
Now, since I don't have the article in front of me and I have not seen nor heard any major news media mentioning it, I have my reservations about the trueness of this news, although, I have to confess, a little voice in my head screams that it is all true. While I am waiting for a link or copy of this aricle, again published by Autosprint, I wonder if anyone on this panel has any info on this matter.

Here there a link: http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/sport/articoli/articolo400703.shtml
It's in Italian. It pretty much says what I wrote in my message. It also mentions that the source of their info is Autosprint. Does anyone know their link?
(No it's not Autosprint.com : )

[gloomyDAY]

Can't wait to see the story behind this accusation!

I get back from work in about 4 hours. This thread will probably be swamped.

[Breeze]

http://www.autosprint.it/auto/indexRivistaAutoSprint.asp

[Hawkmoon]

They would be the three buttons marked "CTRL + ALT + DELETE".

After they've done this, the drivers have to make sure they hit the "Super Fast Launch" button and not the "Shut Down" button becuase we all know what happened to Hamilton in Brazil when he pressed the wrong button.

[mstillhere]

http://www.autosprint.it/auto/indexRivistaAutoSprint.asp

Hi Breeze, thank you for the link. I actually registered to see if I could read the article. But besides reading the title of the article on the cover page, which is "that's how they were cheating at the start" I could not gain access to the article and read it. but, according to this article the BUG exists and Honda found out about it. Their question is: Did McLAren know about it and are there any other bugs in the electronic system, only known by McLaren, that would give McLaren an unfair advantage over their rivals? I have a feeling that if this news is true it would be in the news media fairly soon otherwise it could be hushed and dealt with behind closed doors to avoid more bad publicity.

[Ari]

Going to be very interesting.

If it's found that McLaren are playing funny buggers again then there's going to have to be something done about it. Can they afford to keep paying fines?

I'm a Ferrari man all the way but we need McLaren in there for the competition.

Absurd. Uncle Ron's lost it.

[Ranger]

Well the FIA selected McLaren's tender for a CPU, and these problems occur when you monopolise the supply of a certain component for a sport.

The problem will probably be fixed soon.

[mstillhere]

Well the FIA selected McLaren's tender for a CPU, and these problems occur when you monopolise the supply of a certain component for a sport.

The problem will probably be fixed soon.

Besides the correcteness of the news or not, knowing how often teams have been caught bending the rules, cheating and so on, why not giving a third party the task to engeenier such device? I know the all the teams were equally asked to do it but why would you do that? After all, and that's what I find shocking, since when Formula 1 teams are experts in electronics?

[pino]

Hi Breeze, thank you for the link. I actually registered to see if I could read the article. But besides reading the title of the article on the cover page, which is "that's how they were cheating at the start" I could not gain access to the article and read it.

Autosprint doesn't have a web-site where you can read their articles, you need to buy the magazine for that :(

[wmcot]

Has anybody got a link to a website where I can download the cheat codes for the McLaren ECU?? ;)

p.s. If Honda found it, they obviously haven't been making use of it based on their performance.

[markabilly]

Hi Breeze, thank you for the link. I actually registered to see if I could read the article. But besides reading the title of the article on the cover page, which is "that's how they were cheating at the start" I could not gain access to the article and read it. but, according to this article the BUG exists and Honda found out about it. Their question is: Did McLAren know about it and are there any other bugs in the electronic system, only known by McLaren, that would give McLaren an unfair advantage over their rivals? I have a feeling that if this news is true it would be in the news media fairly soon otherwise it could be hushed and dealt with behind closed doors to avoid more bad publicity.

What a dumb question.

Of course team intergrity macheater did not know. It was a rogue employee........ :beer:

No one at Macheat ever saw the instructions.... :beer:

No one at Macheat ever pushed the buttons...... :beer:

No other bugs exist at macheat....... :beer:

There are no emails....... :beer:

[ioan]

What a dumb question.

Of course team intergrity macheater did not know. It was a rogue employee........

No one at Macheat ever saw the instructions.... :beer:

No one at Macheat ever pushed the buttons...... :beer:

No other bugs exist at macheat....... :beer:

There are no emails....... :beer:

:rotflmao:

[ArrowsFA1]

I have my reservations about the trueness of this news...

I have a feeling that if this news is true it would be in the news media fairly soon otherwise it could be hushed and dealt with behind closed doors to avoid more bad publicity.
Without there being any confirmation of this story as yet it does seem to have been put together following Jarno Trulli's recent comments (here (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64806) & here (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65106)) i.e. suspicions of some form of TC being used.

[leopard]

Before making statements, Honda must ensure that it applies to all cars. If the key combination only work out for Honda it would be great benefit to give them more chance challenging the title.

Never tell others, that's the first rule ;)

[DonJippo]

Without there being any confirmation of this story as yet it does seem to have been put together following Jarno Trulli's recent comments (here (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64806) & here (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65106)) i.e. suspicions of some form of TC being used.

Where in the second article it says he is suspicious of TC being used?

[ArrowsFA1]

Where in the second article it says he is suspicious of TC being used?

"Looking at the behaviour of the Ferraris on the track is obviously depressing. They can brake wherever they want to but most of all they can accelerate wherever they want to, while I always have to be careful with getting on the power, which is not managed by traction control anymore."
He certainly does not say they are using TC, but he is noting a clear difference between his Toyota and the Ferraris. Obviously, given the different levels of performance between the two teams in recent years that may simply be because Ferrari are doing a better job with the new regs. However, Jarno's comments do rather echo Senna's observations of the Benetton at the start of the 1994 season.

[ioan]

He certainly does not say they are using TC, but he is noting a clear difference between his Toyota and the Ferraris. Obviously, given the different levels of performance between the two teams in recent years that may simply be because Ferrari are doing a better job with the new regs. However, Jarno's comments do rather echo Senna's observations of the Benetton at the start of the 1994 season.

And the liaison between the '94 Benetton and the '08 Ferrari being?!

[SGWilko]

I found a bug on my windscreen the other day........

This story, or lack of evidence to bolster it, smells of that stuff that comes out the back of male cows. Oh, what's it called again......

I assume that, as Honda found the bug, that explains away very nicely their excellent testing times to-date.......

And which three buttons might these be, are not all the buttons on the different teams very unalike?

Whatever next, WWII bombers found on moon......?

:rolleyes:

[maxu05]

[quote="SGWilko"]I found a bug on my windscreen the other day.......
This story, or lack of evidence to bolster it, smells of that stuff that comes out the back of male cows.
They have male cows ? :s hock:

Oh, what's it called again...... Umm Tranny cow ?

[SGWilko]

I found a bug on my windscreen the other day.......
This story, or lack of evidence to bolster it, smells of that stuff that comes out the back of male cows.
They have male cows ? :s hock:

Oh, what's it called again...... Umm Tranny cow ?

Fairy muff. The male of the bovine species then. But I assume you get the gist of it.........

[maxu05]

:laugh:

[I am evil Homer]

If this is true isn't actually a fault in the Microsoft software as MES are only building the ECU not the controlling software.

[TMorel]

sure sure, blame Microsoft. It's always the little guy at fault...

I want to know how many other teams had found the bug but just forgot to mention it.

Also, didn't the FIA get a team to disassemble the Benneton code many years ago? Why don't they just do the same now and see what else is in there.

[wmcot]

It's all part of a master plan for Bill Gates to take over Bernie's position! ;)

[Tazio]

??????????????????

[DimitraF1]

oi laomo :P

[samuratt]

if this turns out to be true it would be embarrasing for McLaren.

On the other hand, a three button push reset seems so stupid to me... :)

It is known that developers and programers like to create their own bugs to leave their sign in the software. Sometimes these bugs get to be known (i remeber one about microsoft excel) and some others not.

[Nikki Katz]

There's no way that this is intentional as regardless of what you think happened in the spygate thing McLaren aren't stupid enough to do something like this, especially not so soon afterwards. The system is already somewhat controversial due to being made by McLaren in the first place, they just wouldn't be able to get away with such an obvious infringement of the rules.
However, this does need to be addressed as while McLaren might be under suspicion having developed the system, all teams have to use it, so there's really nothing stopping the other 10 teams from hitting all the buttons at once and blaming it on McLaren.

[Big Ben]

The first weird thing about this story is the fact that such a news is a news only in Italy.
The second would be the fact that a team with such performances as honda didn't decide to be unaware about this little detail.

[maxu05]

If McClaren has designed the software, how hard would it be to create cheats ? Many of you have played PS2/PS3/Gamebox/computer games etc, and there are cheats available if you type in the right code. What is stopping McClaren from designing cheats into the system that only they can decode ?

[markabilly]

If McClaren has designed the software, how hard would it be to create cheats ? Many of you have played PS2/PS3/Gamebox/computer games etc, and there are cheats available if you type in the right code. What is stopping McClaren from designing cheats into the system that only they can decode ?


What is stopping??????.....well, as we all know, team intergrity mcheat would never ever do anything like this, just as they would never ever use secrets from another team, test tire gasses used by another team..........and on so on.......or do something like protest fuel temperatures under the guise of seeking clarification where the real intent was disqualify other cars to give the WDC to the driver who choked it all away....or anything like that whatsoever.....so we a;; know that macheat does not have anything stopping them because they would never ever go there is first place....ooo :beer:

[mstillhere]

Latest news (I requested a link- as soon as I get I'll post it).
Next week FIA technicians are going to disect the McLaren ECU upon request of two teams. And yes, you guessed right, one of them is......Ferrari. I am dying to find more info about this topic. No idea why the international press is not picking up on this. Caution?

[jso1985]

If McClaren has designed the software, how hard would it be to create cheats ? Many of you have played PS2/PS3/Gamebox/computer games etc, and there are cheats available if you type in the right code. What is stopping McClaren from designing cheats into the system that only they can decode ?

It's a really stupid and easy to catch way to cheat, that's what I think is stopping McLaren from doing that.

[mstillhere]

If McClaren has designed the software, how hard would it be to create cheats ? Many of you have played PS2/PS3/Gamebox/computer games etc, and there are cheats available if you type in the right code. What is stopping McClaren from designing cheats into the system that only they can decode ?

So, in light of your statement, are we to assume that Ecclestone & Co. don't play any of the games listed above? :)

[Easy Drifter]

Why didn't they just get a can of Raid@ and kill the bug?

[Osella]

What is stopping McClaren from designing cheats into the system that only they can decode ?

The simple fact that a programme which just runs through the code using different combinations of button-push options would find that sort of cheat within a few minutes if it was push-button operated. It wouldn't take a huge amount of effort for the FIA or any other team to find that sort of cheat, and you can bet a couple of teams probably tried just that, in case there is a bug, or in case there is a cheat or loophole they can use.

Perhaps that is what Honda have found...

[Valve Bounce]

I have to confess, a little voice in my head screams that it is all true. .

It's that "CUTE" ringtone that they have been advertising on the telly. :D

[mstillhere]

Sorry guys,
I am searching the net like crazy, looking for more info about this subject. Despite my efforts, I have not found one single piece of information (except for that ONE Italian magazine). This is frustrating! How can it be that they talk about MS involved with motorcycles and nobody has heard anything about Honda and the ECU"s glitch? There is nothing on the Honda, Ferrari and McLAren web sites. Nothing on the FIA and so on.....I am starting to believe that this is just a rumour....... :(

[maxu05]

:s hock: A rumour ? How dare they!!!

[Hawkmoon]

o.....I am starting to believe that this is just a rumour....... :(

Did you really think that it was true?

I mean, how stupid would McLaren have to be to put illegal launch control in their ECU and then give it to all the other teams?

McLaren weren't all that great at getting off the line in '07 anyway. Sure, they were better than Ferrari at the start of the year but by the end of the year the Reds were equal, if not better. Even at the start of the year the McLaren's weren't getting starts like the Renault's did a few seasons ago.

This one stinks of journalistic nonsense made up by bored journo's in the offseason.

[mstillhere]

Did you really think that it was true?

Well the thing is that anything that has to do with electronics and softwares IMO can be altered/hacked. I am truly clueless on why the FIA would open this can of worms. I think that it's very naive to think that no one would dare messing with this very important and sensitive software one way or an other. It would require constant monitoring and checking from the FIA to ensure compliance of all the teams and still, with a very good hacker, I think that no FIA technician can really find out what's going on. So that's why I was saying a little voice in my head was screaming that all this could very well be true, although to date there is no official confirmation. Darn!!! :)

[I am evil Homer]

If McClaren has designed the software, how hard would it be to create cheats ? Many of you have played PS2/PS3/Gamebox/computer games etc, and there are cheats available if you type in the right code. What is stopping McClaren from designing cheats into the system that only they can decode ?


MES hasn't designed the software, Microsoft has. MES is supplying the hardware - the ECU itself and ensuring it processes the software. This like blaming Dell for Excel having a bug that enables you to do something.

[Spoonbender]

How did Honda find this 'glitch', by pressing a combination of buttons? if so, then I want that job. Also Honda have an extra Button that the other teams don't have (Jenson). Why didn't someone phone the Helpdesk at Mclaren? I can see them all now on the grid at Melbourne on their mobiles to Mclaren HQ all being told "have you tried switching it off and on again"

Autosprint is the motor-racing equivalent of Bild.

[mstillhere]

Autosprint is the motor-racing equivalent of Bild.

Noted

[mgf909]

Gday all - just joined and first post.

This story has got to be bull****e. There is simply no way the FIA would allow the ECU to contain precompiled software for this exact reason.

I would imagine the FIA ihas a copy of the code, including all updates, then complies it with encrytion before sending it back to the ECU manufacturer for uploading into the ECU hardware. They may even do this themselves.

Secondly, not even McLaren would be so dumb to try to hide "cheat" codes - way too much to lose after last year! Another scandle like that would most certainly sink the company...

[ioan]

Gday all - just joined and first post.

This story has got to be bull****e. There is simply no way the FIA would allow the ECU to contain precompiled software for this exact reason.

I would imagine the FIA ihas a copy of the code, including all updates, then complies it with encrytion before sending it back to the ECU manufacturer for uploading into the ECU hardware. They may even do this themselves.

Secondly, not even McLaren would be so dumb to try to hide "cheat" codes - way too much to lose after last year! Another scandle like that would most certainly sink the company...

You're underestimating how McLaren's dumbness! After last season I won't be surprised by anything coming from them cheats and liars.

[SGWilko]

Gday all - just joined and first post.

This story has got to be bull****e. There is simply no way the FIA would allow the ECU to contain precompiled software for this exact reason.

I would imagine the FIA ihas a copy of the code, including all updates, then complies it with encrytion before sending it back to the ECU manufacturer for uploading into the ECU hardware. They may even do this themselves.

Secondly, not even McLaren would be so dumb to try to hide "cheat" codes - way too much to lose after last year! Another scandle like that would most certainly sink the company...

Unless of course this is just ghosts in the machine - random segments of code that when run together form a new function.

[SGWilko]

You're underestimating how McLaren's dumbness! After last season I won't be surprised by anything coming from them cheats and liars.

Ioan, honestly you so set yourself up for the fall my friend.

You're calling McLaren dumb is akin to the pot/kettle situation. Don't you keep getting banned from here for insulting the minions? Once is a lesson learned, twice, now that is dumb......

[Dzeidzei]

Unless of course this is just ghosts in the machine - random segments of code that when run together form a new function.

Congrats. Youve reinvented programming, compiling and code execution. That doesnt happen every day.

[SGWilko]

Congrats. Youve reinvented programming, compiling and code execution. That doesnt happen every day.

Sheesh, I could've put that on the back of a fag packet.........

My next reinvention - circular traversing device.

[ioan]

Ioan, honestly you so set yourself up for the fall my friend.

You're calling McLaren dumb is akin to the pot/kettle situation. Don't you keep getting banned from here for insulting the minions? Once is a lesson learned, twice, now that is dumb......

Calling any team dumb on the forum won't get you banned.
I know what I say, I've only got banned once in 5 years. :D

Now let's go back to talk about those cheaters at McLaren and their ECU! :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

Now let's go back to talk about those cheaters at McLaren and their ECU! :p :
How about we do that if anyone can find that there is any substance in this latest 'Honda found a bug in the McLaren CPU' "revelation"? ;)

[ioan]

How about we do that if anyone can find that there is any substance in this latest 'Honda found a bug in the McLaren CPU' "revelation"? ;)

This is actually a good point! :D

[woody2goody]

I think what is being brushed over is the fact that Italian, probably pro-Ferrari journalists have started this rumour, an we know how they like to defame, intimidate, bully their opposition when they feel like they have a challenge on their hands.

2008 may be their toughest challenge yet as 4 or 5 other teams could potentially mix it with them. Maybe these rumours will start about BMW, Renault or even Williams if they start going faster than the red cars...

[ioan]

I think what is being brushed over is the fact that Italian, probably pro-Ferrari journalists have started this rumour, an we know how they like to defame, intimidate, bully their opposition when they feel like they have a challenge on their hands.

2008 may be their toughest challenge yet as 4 or 5 other teams could potentially mix it with them. Maybe these rumours will start about BMW, Renault or even Williams if they start going faster than the red cars...

The same can be said about the British press (see the McLaren spying case), so it's no argument.

[Tazio]

I think what is being brushed over is the fact that Italian, probably pro-Ferrari journalists have started this rumour, an we know how they like to defame, intimidate, bully their opposition when they feel like they have a challenge on their hands.Wood' I'm going to guess that at the age of 18 you probably are not an authority on Italian Journalism!
In fact I’ll go one better, that is an uninformed, biased remark!
And who is "we"? If you mean the Brits, I think that might
be a bit of the pot calling the kettle black!

[ArrowsFA1]

This is just another example of how increasingly divisive F1 has become recently :dozey:

[Tazio]

This is just another example of how increasingly divisive F1 has become recently :dozey:
NO IT ISN'T!! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

:p

[mstillhere]

I think what is being brushed over is the fact that Italian, probably pro-Ferrari journalists have started this rumour, an we know how they like to defame, intimidate, bully their opposition when they feel like they have a challenge on their hands.

I actually agree with you. All Italians are like that.

[Schnell]

I read in an other F1 site that Honda found a bug in the CPU made by McLAren. (I requested a link to verify teh news). According to this article published by Autospint, by pushing 3 buttons at the same time the electronic system is able to override some of the parameters set in the system and allows the car to have a super fast start. Way fast. The question is: is McLaren aware of it and is McLaren aware of other bypasses that would give them an unfair advantge oder their adversaries?
Now, since I don't have the article in front of me and I have not seen nor heard any major news media mentioning it, I have my reservations about the trueness of this news, although, I have to confess, a little voice in my head screams that it is all true. While I am waiting for a link or copy of this aricle, again published by Autosprint, I wonder if anyone on this panel has any info on this matter.

The clue to this is in the scource 'AutosPINT'

[mstillhere]

The clue to this is in the scource 'AutosPINT'

I agree. Most disappointing :(

I think what is being brushed over is the fact that Italian, probably pro-Ferrari journalists have started this rumour, an we know how they like to defame, intimidate, bully their opposition when they feel like they have a challenge on their hands.

2008 may be their toughest challenge yet as 4 or 5 other teams could potentially mix it with them. Maybe these rumours will start about BMW, Renault or even Williams if they start going faster than the red cars...


I actually agree with you. All Italians are like that.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????

[mstillhere]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????

Why are so puzzled? What? Don't tell me you don't agree. Well, I think that's obvious to the majority of the people on this panel (who have read this posting, obviously - so far YOU are the only one who has been puzzled). We only have the honesty to call people (and their journalists) for who they really are. That's all.

[Tazio]

Just reporting the news over here!
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080312144635.shtml

Ferrari is believed to have ultimately the quickest car, but Nick Heidfeld reckons the red team's silver rivals might get off to a faster start when the 2008 season gets racing on Sunday.

The BMW Sauber driver told the magazine Sport Bild that one of the most impressive revelations of the recent winter period for him was the speed at which McLaren's MP4-23 got off the line when its drivers were practicing race starts.

Coinciding with the introduction of the McLaren-supplied control ECU this season, traction and also launch control has been banned.

Heidfeld suggests that the Mercedes-powered team will have the jump on its rivals when it comes to how Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen make their manual starts in 2008.



"McLaren have a starting system that allows Hamilton and Kovalainen to pull away with only 9,000 revs. On the other hand, we (BMW) need to use much higher speeds when we begin to accelerate," the 30-year-old said

[SGWilko]

9,000 revs.

That's barely tickover on an F1 motor isn't it?

[Tazio]

I have a question about Nick's comment. I heard Alex Zanardi refer to BMW Power in a pre race interview before RK took his first podium at Monza with the proud company of Kimi on the second step, and The Chin prominently displayed at the top step.1n 2006. Back to my question. Could this be a characteristic of the BMW power curve, and not necessarily the same for the other top contender/s? Or is it more complex including suspension, (wheel camber), electronics, engine mapping, and clutch performance? This is an art that Renault has been associated with in the past! Or could it have something to do with the "integrity" of the McLaren chassis ;)

[mstillhere]

Just reporting the news over here!
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080312144635.shtml

Ferrari is believed to have ultimately the quickest car, but Nick Heidfeld reckons the red team's silver rivals might get off to a faster start when the 2008 season gets racing on Sunday.

The BMW Sauber driver told the magazine Sport Bild that one of the most impressive revelations of the recent winter period for him was the speed at which McLaren's MP4-23 got off the line when its drivers were practicing race starts.

Coinciding with the introduction of the McLaren-supplied control ECU this season, traction and also launch control has been banned.

Heidfeld suggests that the Mercedes-powered team will have the jump on its rivals when it comes to how Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen make their manual starts in 2008.



"McLaren have a starting system that allows Hamilton and Kovalainen to pull away with only 9,000 revs. On the other hand, we (BMW) need to use much higher speeds when we begin to accelerate," the 30-year-old said

I truly hope that whatever they are doing and they are going to do is legal. Otherwise I can see the whole thing seriously escalate with a race where all the teams will be looking for 1,000 different ways how to override the ECU program for their own advantage with very serious consecuences for the credibility of F1 (or whatever is left of it).

[markabilly]

Just reporting the news over here!
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080312144635.shtml

Ferrari is believed to have ultimately the quickest car, but Nick Heidfeld reckons the red team's silver rivals might get off to a faster start when the 2008 season gets racing on Sunday.

The BMW Sauber driver told the magazine Sport Bild that one of the most impressive revelations of the recent winter period for him was the speed at which McLaren's MP4-23 got off the line when its drivers were practicing race starts.

Coinciding with the introduction of the McLaren-supplied control ECU this season, traction and also launch control has been banned.

Heidfeld suggests that the Mercedes-powered team will have the jump on its rivals when it comes to how Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen make their manual starts in 2008.



"McLaren have a starting system that allows Hamilton and Kovalainen to pull away with only 9,000 revs. On the other hand, we (BMW) need to use much higher speeds when we begin to accelerate," the 30-year-old said
Well, if one knows exactly how the ECU will act, and even if it is programmed exactly the same for each and every team, but one team has a better understanding of it, then one may well be able to design the rest of the engine, or make changes to the rest of the engine to take advantage of that ECU to their own advantage above the others.

No need for fancy buttons .......

[SGWilko]

Well, if one knows exactly how the ECU will act, and even if it is programmed exactly the same for each and every team, but one team has a better understanding of it, then one may well be able to design the rest of the engine, or make changes to the rest of the engine to take advantage of that ECU to their own advantage above the others.

No need for fancy buttons .......

Wow, imagine that, McLaren the only team allowed to re-design their engine....

That's a 'hold the front page' story, that is........

[Tazio]

Well, if one knows exactly how the ECU will act, and even if it is programmed exactly the same for each and every team, but one team has a better understanding of it, then one may well be able to design the rest of the engine, or make changes to the rest of the engine to take advantage of that ECU to their own advantage above the others.

No need for fancy buttons ........Than this could be the equivalent of moving the whole field to Bridgestone’s
and the head start Ferrari got from that experience! Although not exactly the same.
Is this one of an ongoing series of make-up calls that we have hashed on another thread?
Or was it (and I don't have an informed opinion on the matter)
the ECU used because it would be the proper one for various reasons.
Like ease of compatibility, cost, technical support, and accessibility of product

[ArrowsFA1]

"McLaren have a starting system that allows Hamilton and Kovalainen to pull away with only 9,000 revs. On the other hand, we (BMW) need to use much higher speeds when we begin to accelerate"
Shock, horror :eek: Higher speeds eh? So a BMW engine is not the same as a Mercedes :eek:

[Tazio]

Shock, horror :eek: Higher speeds eh? So a BMW engine is not the same as a Mercedes :eek: As I originally suspected!

[ioan]

Shock, horror :eek: Higher speeds eh? So a BMW engine is not the same as a Mercedes :eek:

You're are being superficial.

[ArrowsFA1]

You're are being superficial.
That...and sarcastic :D

More seriously, Heidfeld's comments reflect somewhat those made by Jarno Trulli back in January when he said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64806) "I think that some teams have already found a way to automate the starting procedure and reduce to the minimum the chance of spinning the wheels under acceleration".

Max Mosley dismissed (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64881) such concerns: "First of all you have got to circumvent the ECU and secondly you have got to somehow disable our spy in the cab that will tell us that is going on."

[markabilly]

Wow, imagine that, McLaren the only team allowed to re-design their engine....

That's a 'hold the front page' story, that is........
Not necessarily a complete re-design, just some modifications to perhaps the fuel delivery system or whatever...not being an expert in the current modification possibilities of an F1 engine, but it would seem possible to do it without actually modifiying the little black box or ECU, I would think

[Breeze]

Not necessarily a complete re-design, just some modifications to perhaps the fuel delivery system or whatever..............
Yup, they put an in line voltage regulator before the fuel pump with an egg timer on it. Start the egg timer when all the lights go on and it quits regulating 3-4 seconds after all the lights go out. I just wonder if they use this egg timer:

[SGWilko]

Not necessarily a complete re-design, just some modifications to perhaps the fuel delivery system or whatever...not being an expert in the current modification possibilities of an F1 engine, but it would seem possible to do it without actually modifiying the little black box or ECU, I would think

Perhaps 9K rpm is optimum torque for a grid start (for McLaren car/engine/gearbox combination), where the bhp of the engine is insufficient to break the tyre/tarmac traction threshold......

Nah, way, WAY too many variables track to track; temp, surface construction, tyre compound, humidity...........

[jjanicke]

What is stopping??????.....well, as we all know, team intergrity mcheat would never ever do anything like this, just as they would never ever use secrets from another team, test tire gasses used by another team..........and on so on.......or do something like protest fuel temperatures under the guise of seeking clarification where the real intent was disqualify other cars to give the WDC to the driver who choked it all away....or anything like that whatsoever.....so we a;; know that macheat does not have anything stopping them because they would never ever go there is first place....ooo :beer:

Wait, so cheating is using someone elses design, but not using materials outside their legal (to F1) specification???

Is this a which hunt or what!

[jjanicke]

You're underestimating how McLaren's dumbness! After last season I won't be surprised by anything coming from them cheats and liars.

I'm amazed at your love and aspiration of known cheat, yet your which hunt of another known cheat.

Are you two faced!

[SGWilko]

Are you two faced! Zaphod?

I think he also owns a robot called Marvin.

"....brain the size of a planet..........." :laugh:

[markabilly]

Wait, so cheating is using someone elses design, but not using materials outside their legal (to F1) specification???

Is this a which hunt or what!
No if given the ecu and its being used in its unmodified state but designing certain compoments of the engine to take advantage of it, is NOT cheating. OTOH, having some insider knowledge somehow denied to others, is another story, since one would think that defeats the very purpose.....as to you, perhaps you need to take things where they are found as that particular post refferred to the alleged secret code that gives more HP, and that ain't what I am talking about.

[ioan]

Wait, so cheating is using someone elses design, but not using materials outside their legal (to F1) specification???


What brand of cool aid are you on?!

[ioan]

I'm amazed at your love and aspiration of known cheat, yet your which hunt of another known cheat.

Are you two faced!

When did I encourage cheating?
Next time you want to pick on me, please pick :D something plausible, cause not everyone is like you!

[jjanicke]

No if given the ecu and its being used in its unmodified state but designing certain compoments of the engine to take advantage of it, is NOT cheating. OTOH, having some insider knowledge somehow denied to others, is another story, since one would think that defeats the very purpose.....as to you, perhaps you need to take things where they are found as that particular post refferred to the alleged secret code that gives more HP, and that ain't what I am talking about.

Thats's quite clear.

I was referring to you comments on Mclaren being cheats (for obvious reasons) yet Mclaren's FIA complaint against use of illegal materials (the fuel temperature was outside the allowed limits) as being poor sportsmanship to better their driver points and win the WDC.

[wmcot]

I'm amazed at your love and aspiration of known cheat, yet your which hunt of another known cheat.

Are you two faced!

By the way, it's "WITCH HUNT"...

[ArrowsFA1]

Zaphod?

I think he also owns a robot called Marvin.

"....brain the size of a planet..........." :laugh:
:rotflmao: Oh boy does that bring back memories :s mokin:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/gallery/images/340/zaphod2.jpg

[jjanicke]

By the way, it's "WITCH HUNT"...

LOL :) True!

[SGWilko]

By the way, it's "WITCH HUNT"...

As in "oi, witch hunt did that"? :laugh:

[mstillhere]

Well, it looks like this issue is not to go away any time soon. Ferrari are suspecting that Kimi's electronic pump malfuctioned due to a problem with the ECU unit (It did not respond the way it was supposed to). They also are suspecting that the engine failures (so far unexplained by Ferrari- and that is huge) MIGHT have something to do with this unit as well.
Some other teams are also wondering if this unit is hindering the full potential of their cars.
I actually wonder how can a unit that was mainly designed by a McLaren company for a Mclaren car is supposed to beatifully fit in with so many other engines. Actually I am ready to say that the whole idea of having ONE electronic unit - McLaren made or not - working properly again in so mamy different cars is totally stupid and wrong. It should be reconsidered.

[jjanicke]

Well, it looks like this issue is not to go away any time soon. Ferrari are suspecting that Kimi's electronic pump malfuctioned due to a problem with the ECU unit (It did not respond the way it was supposed to). They also are suspecting that the engine failures (so far unexplained by Ferrari- and that is huge) MIGHT have something to do with this unit as well.
Some other teams are also wondering if this unit is hindering the full potential of their cars.
I actually wonder how can a unit that was mainly designed by a McLaren company for a Mclaren car is supposed to beatifully fit in with so many other engines. Actually I am ready to say that the whole idea of having ONE electronic unit - McLaren made or not - working properly again in so mamy different cars is totally stupid and wrong. It should be reconsidered.

It's interesting that there were plenty of other cars able to finish the race without engine problems.

The HW has been developed by Mclaren, the SW by Mircosoft.

Why is having a standard ECU "stupid and wrong"? Certainly the mayhem, that I very much enjoyed this past weekend, was due to not having traction control, thanks to a standard ECU. Massa's turn 1 and Glock's incidents would not have happened with TC. The racing this year is going to be as much about the driver as the equipment. In years past it was mostly about the equipment and a little about the driver.

[mstillhere]

It's interesting that there were plenty of other cars able to finish the race without engine problems.

The HW has been developed by Mclaren, the SW by Mircosoft.

Why is having a standard ECU "stupid and wrong"? Certainly the mayhem, that I very much enjoyed this past weekend, was due to not having traction control, thanks to a standard ECU. Massa's turn 1 and Glock's incidents would not have happened with TC. The racing this year is going to be as much about the driver as the equipment. In years past it was mostly about the equipment and a little about the driver.

I truly, truly hope that what happened to Ferrari in Australia was a single and isolated case (with the electronic gas pump amd MAYBE the engineS - with capital S- failures). What it matters to me is that the ECU is not affecting the values of the cars in the field. Just imagine the effects on the sport if we were to find out that just the opposite is true.

[ArrowsFA1]

Well, it looks like this issue is not to go away...
Are the Ferrari "suspicions" the ones mentioned in this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65851) report where Stefano Domenicali says:
"Today we had engine trouble, but with this rule-book the gearbox is another element to keep in check. Let's not forget that with MES (the standard ECU) we can have some problems in understanding the system, and how to integrate it with the car. We must still discover it in full."
I don't know about other teams saying the ECU is a source of their problems, but I guess it's a neat, ready-made, excuse for poor reliability which could be down to any number of different factors.

[SGWilko]

Are the Ferrari "suspicions" the ones mentioned in this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65851) report where Stefano Domenicali says:
I don't know about other teams saying the ECU is a source of their problems, but I guess it's a neat, ready-made, excuse for poor reliability which could be down to any number of different factors.

Hey, they could take a LEAF out of the train delay excuses book as used by rail operators in Britain.

Classic examples include;

Adverse weather conditions (wrong tyre choice?)

Congestion (never quite understood this one, they run to a timetable, so know exactly how many trains are running don't they), but could be for when they queue up in the pits......

Leaves on the line

Staff shortages (couldn't get out of bed)

Unforseen circumstances (this is a good one for blaming the ECU) alond with,

Circumstances beyond our control. (It'a all Ross's fault, he left....) :laugh:

I don't know about other teams saying the ECU is a source of their problems, but I guess it's a neat, ready-made, excuse for poor reliability which could be down to any number of different factors.

Very true, but having a Mclaren-supplied ECU was always going to bring these types of suspicions/concerns.

After 2007, any 'faith' in Mclaren being fair and even-handed has been well and truly and, imo, potentially forever lost.

That's not to say that Mclaren are up to no good with the ECU....I still try to cling to the hope that they can be fair, even though I don't trust them and wish the FIA had gone to a supplier with no link to F1 (VW?), but seriously, after the repeated underhand tactics and denials of the truth that they commited last year, what does any Mclaren-loving person expect?

Yes, I know it's 'innocent until proven guilty', but likewise it's 'guilty when proven guilty' and there are some posters on here who have yet to accept that.

[SGWilko]

Very true, but having a Mclaren-supplied ECU was always going to bring these types of suspicions/concerns.

After 2007, any 'faith' in Mclaren being fair and even-handed has been well and truly and, imo, potentially forever lost.

That's not to say that Mclaren are up to no good with the ECU....I still try to cling to the hope that they can be fair, even though I don't trust them and wish the FIA had gone to a supplier with no link to F1 (VW?), but seriously, after the repeated underhand tactics and denials of the truth that they commited last year, what does any Mclaren-loving person expect?

Yes, I know it's 'innocent until proven guilty', but likewise it's 'guilty when proven guilty' and there are some posters on here who have yet to accept that.

Interesting quote from Max on Autosport yesterday....


"If I was against Dennis, I wouldn't have awarded McLaren the supply of the ECUs to the F1 teams, I would have let Magneti Marelli win the contract, since it already supplied most of the teams.
As much as I am pleased MES got the contract, would it not have been better to have either -

1. Gone with the majority supplier

or

2. Chosen a complete independent, say Lucas or Bosch for example.....

It's a little unusual when Max words things like that....

[Bagwan]

Lucas ?
Say goodbye to racing in the rain .

Interesting quote from Max on Autosport yesterday....


As much as I am pleased MES got the contract, would it not have been better to have either -

1. Gone with the majority supplier

or

2. Chosen a complete independent, say Lucas or Bosch for example.....

It's a little unusual when Max words things like that....

The problem with option 1 is that it in itself doesn't solve the 'suspicions' problem.

I'm a fully-paid up Tifosi member, so should have been happy if Magneti Marelli had been given the contract, but it would have just opened the door to yet more 'FIA stands for Ferrari International Assistance' stuff.

Option 2 is, imo, the only option that should have been considered.

It's not Mclaren's fault that they were awarded the contract, and I have to presume that it was won in good faith and won correctly within the criteria the FIA put forward, but for the sake of 'closure' the contract being awarded to MES was not a good decision.

Personally, I very much doubt that the ECU either caused the Ferrari engine failures or, even if it was a factor, it was just an unfortunate one-off, but it would have just been so much better for the sport if a team whose name is now forever linked with serious integrity issues had been nowhere near the contract.

[jjanicke]

I truly, truly hope that what happened to Ferrari in Australia was a single and isolated case (with the electronic gas pump amd MAYBE the engineS - with capital S- failures). What it matters to me is that the ECU is not affecting the values of the cars in the field. Just imagine the effects on the sport if we were to find out that just the opposite is true.

I agree! But let's not be hasty and jump to conclusion.


Interesting quote from Max on Autosport yesterday....


As much as I am pleased MES got the contract, would it not have been better to have either -

1. Gone with the majority supplier

or

2. Chosen a complete independent, say Lucas or Bosch for example.....

It's a little unusual when Max words things like that....

Well the FIA has already set a precedent when they opted for a standard Bridgestone tire.

[Tazio]

Are the Ferrari "suspicions" the ones mentioned in this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65851) "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."
Isoroku Yamamoto

[ArrowsFA1]

Yes, I know it's 'innocent until proven guilty', but likewise it's 'guilty when proven guilty'
MES have not been proven guilty of anything whatsoever in relation to the ECU, and any stories & rumours there have been about 'glitches' with the unit have yet to be seen to have any foundation whatsoever.

But in this environment it seems unfounded rumours and speculation that is repeated often enough is "proof of guilt" of something...anything. It isn't anything of the sort; it's just unfounded rumours and speculation being repeated.

MES have not been proven guilty of anything whatsoever in relation to the ECU, and any stories & rumours there have been about 'glitches' with the unit have yet to be seen to have any foundation whatsoever.


And I have not said that there is any foundation to it.

But when Mclaren are self-confessed cheats, don't be surprised when people do not trust them.

That was my point....and it was perfectly clear.

[BDunnell]

And I have not said that there is any foundation to it.

But when Mclaren are self-confessed cheats, don't be surprised when people do not trust them.

That was my point....and it was perfectly clear.

I am surprised at the need to continually mention it, though. And even though I, as you know, came round to the view that McLaren should have been thrown out of both of last year's championships feel that the link between those events and anything to do with the ECU is taking the 'McLaren are cheats' line a bit too far.

[mstillhere]

Are the Ferrari "suspicions" the ones mentioned in this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65851) report where Stefano Domenicali says:
I don't know about other teams saying the ECU is a source of their problems, but I guess it's a neat, ready-made, excuse for poor reliability which could be down to any number of different factors.

So, in your opinion Ferrari suffering 3 engine failures in the same race is just a poor engineering issue? It's just a coincidence that these failures happened just when the ECU was installed. Hum....I don't know. At Ferrari they know how to bulid engines. And I said I truly hope that you are right. it's just a coincidence. I don't dare imagining the consequences if you were not right.

[Bagwan]

I think the point is , was it a good idea to take on the manufacturing of an essential part , when the potential , even if entirely impossible , is that you will be hit with a tampering scandal ?

To have the name of a competitor in the series on a part that the whole grid must use is asking for trouble , no matter what the name . To have that part be so fundamental as the ECU is foolhardy .

When exactly did they get the contract ?
There's the mitigating factor here .

I don't recall , but if it was after the excrement started to hit the air moving device , it was even more stupid on both the part of the FIA , and McLaren .

[W8&C]

Latest rumours say that the standard ECU got a super secret on/off switch, remote controlled only by Ron Dennis himself (...the only reason why Mercedes couldn´t sack him...). The beta-version was personally tested by Bill Gates erroneously with Hamiltons machinery in Brazil last season.

You heard it here first!

[janneppi]

So, in your opinion Ferrari suffering 3 engine failures in the same race is just a poor engineering issue? It's just a coincidence that these failures happened just when the ECU was installed. Hum....I don't know. At Ferrari they know how to bulid engines. And I said I truly hope that you are right. it's just a coincidence. I don't dare imagining the consequences if you were not right.
According to some recent news reports, Ferrari's suffered a valve failure of some kind during the race. At least that might the official version given to press.

[markabilly]

MES have not been proven guilty of anything whatsoever in relation to the ECU, and any stories & rumours there have been about 'glitches' with the unit have yet to be seen to have any foundation whatsoever.

But in this environment it seems unfounded rumours and speculation that is repeated often enough is "proof of guilt" of something...anything. It isn't anything of the sort; it's just unfounded rumours and speculation being repeated.
Seems about 10 to six months or so ago, everyone was saying the same thing about a certain set of copy shop doucments and rumors of a certian enginneer with white powder on his pants....and then emails and such...all of which turned out to be:
A. unfounded rumour
B. Specualtion
C. All of the bove
D. none of the above

[mstillhere]

According to some recent news reports, Ferrari's suffered a valve failure of some kind during the race. At least that might the official version given to press.

Link please. I have been unsuccessfully looking for xtra info with no results.

[janneppi]

Link please. I have been unsuccessfully looking for xtra info with no results.
There you go. ;)
http://www.turunsanomat.fi/f1/?ts=1,3:2001:0:0,4:34:645:1:2008-03-18;4:35:0:0:0;4:36:0:0:0,104:34:527304,1:0:0:0:0:0 :

[Tazio]

Link please. I have been unsuccessfully looking for xtra info with no results. There are pobably some rumors flying around. They may be right. This is the latest official word:

Engineers already have a hypothesis as to the cause and this should be confirmed once they are inspected. New engines are currently on their way from Italy to Malaysia and these will arrive on Friday, in order to be fitted for the competitive part of the weekend. As neither car finished the Australian GP, the engine change is penalty-free. Of course, current regulations require a freeze on the actual construction of the power units, but as this is not felt to be the cause of their failure in the first race and as the problem is not believed to be heat related,

[ioan]

I am surprised at the need to continually mention it, though.

Me too. But some people still believe that McLaren and RD are purer than a virgin.

[ioan]

Well the FIA has already set a precedent when they opted for a standard Bridgestone tire.

As far as I know only Bridgestone and Michelin took part in the tender.

With Michelin proving in 2005 that they couldn't build a capable tire for every circumstances, the obvious choice was Bridgestone.

[jjanicke]

As far as I know only Bridgestone and Michelin took part in the tender.

Well then your knowledge is incorrect.

[mstillhere]

There you go. ;)
http://www.turunsanomat.fi/f1/?ts=1,3:2001:0:0,4:34:645:1:2008-03-18;4:35:0:0:0;4:36:0:0:0,104:34:527304,1:0:0:0:0:0 :

I loved reading it. Except for the last two lines, where I was not too sure about a regionalism, everything else made a lot of sense. Thank you. :)

[ioan]

Well then your knowledge is incorrect.

Than correct it! Who else was involved?

[BDunnell]

Me too. But some people still believe that McLaren and RD are purer than a virgin.

So what good does bringing it up time after time do? You're unlikely to sway any opinions. I changed my view on the matter for reasons other than people going on and on about 'McCheat', etc, etc, etc...

[ArrowsFA1]

And I have not said that there is any foundation to it.
But when Mclaren are self-confessed cheats, don't be surprised when people do not trust them.
That was my point....and it was perfectly clear.
Yes it was, and there's no surprise at the lack of trust where McLaren are concerned, but your first point about a lack of foundation is important IMHO.

So, in your opinion Ferrari suffering 3 engine failures in the same race is just a poor engineering issue?
I have no idea, but equally I'm not making the assumption it was the ECU; and even if it was the ECU are we to assume that MES have installed a feature that only affects Ferrari engines, or perhaps Ferrari haven't got the system working with the car as well as others. Who knows!!

Me too. But some people still believe that McLaren and RD are purer than a virgin.
Perhaps they do, but equally some still believe that all teams except McLaren are whiter than white.

[ioan]

Perhaps they do, but equally some still believe that all teams except McLaren are whiter than white.

All I know that they are all different shades of gray, with McLaren at the dark end after last season.

[Valve Bounce]

I think we should wait until Ferrari confirms exactly what caused the engine failures.

[I am evil Homer]

So, in your opinion Ferrari suffering 3 engine failures in the same race is just a poor engineering issue? It's just a coincidence that these failures happened just when the ECU was installed. Hum....I don't know. At Ferrari they know how to bulid engines. And I said I truly hope that you are right. it's just a coincidence. I don't dare imagining the consequences if you were not right.

Seeing as the clearly faulty and cheating ECU powered their engines perfectly during testing it probably was a run of the mill failure....after all it happened to MS in Japan so it's not like they're 100% reliable, no engineered component can be.

[SGWilko]

As far as I know only Bridgestone and Michelin took part in the tender.

With Michelin proving in 2005 that they couldn't build a capable tire for every circumstances, the obvious choice was Bridgestone.

I have a bit of an issue with that.

Firstly, wasn't Pirelli also invited to tender, as buddies of BCE?

Secondly, and please, CMIIAW, but 2005 was the first year that indy had the track surface diamond cut.

Now, Firestone tyres used in American racing series (not sure which, but hey) had already run on this surface, so Bridgestone, same company, had advanced notice.

Question is, were Michelin told of the change in surface finishing? Because it seems that if they were not, and the failures were directly as a result of the improved grip and hence heat build up on the tyre shoulder, that these are mitigating circumstances.

[ioan]

I have a bit of an issue with that.

Firstly, wasn't Pirelli also invited to tender, as buddies of BCE?

Secondly, and please, CMIIAW, but 2005 was the first year that indy had the track surface diamond cut.

Now, Firestone tyres used in American racing series (not sure which, but hey) had already run on this surface, so Bridgestone, same company, had advanced notice.

Question is, were Michelin told of the change in surface finishing? Because it seems that if they were not, and the failures were directly as a result of the improved grip and hence heat build up on the tyre shoulder, that these are mitigating circumstances.

Pirelli were invited, but did they participate?!

As for Michelin's incredible mistake, who's job was to know about the real state of the track?
It's not like the resurfacing was kept a secret, everyone else seemed to know about it, it was widely reported during the weeks before the race, they simply fuked it up. Was it overconfidence or plain stupidity? I don't know. One thing is sure, they followed it up with very personal attacks directed to Max and the FIA.

In any society in this world they would have been treated the same way, thrown out.

[AndyRAC]

The bug in the ECU made Honda more competitive than they were expecting.....Ha ha!!
As for Michelin against the FIA, they have come off worse. No longer in F1, lost the contract in WRC to Pirelli, when Michelins were far superior to Pirelli. They have surely learned their lesson??? Or have they??

[SGWilko]

They [Michelin] have surely learned their lesson??? Or have they??

So long as they continue to make 125 tyres for my 2CV, I don't care. :laugh:

[Tazio]

This is quite vague, but it is the latest I can find on Ferrari engine issue.
It states clearly enough that Ferrari feels it was their responsibility to understand the system. It's not the the type of oversight I would expect from them in this millennia!
http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1205927859/formula_one/F1headlines/Ferrari-blame-ECU/view.html

"It is similarly being reported that Ferrari thinks the fuel pressure problem that stranded Kimi Raikkonen down the Melbourne grid last Saturday is also related to the McLaren ECU.

"This kind of thing can happen when you are working with one procedure that you do not know so well. Now we know that there is a conflict we can make sure it does not happen again," a team spokesman told GP Week.

[Knock-on]

Pirelli were invited, but did they participate?!

As for Michelin's incredible mistake, who's job was to know about the real state of the track?
It's not like the resurfacing was kept a secret, everyone else seemed to know about it, it was widely reported during the weeks before the race, they simply fuked it up. Was it overconfidence or plain stupidity? I don't know. One thing is sure, they followed it up with very personal attacks directed to Max and the FIA.

In any society in this world they would have been treated the same way, thrown out.

ioan, you are being purposefully naive again I think.

Firestone had experience of running on the new surface and as they are owned by BS, then BS had testing data for their F1 race tyres.

Mich were not allowed to test and consequently found that the new diamond cut, coupled with the banked circuit, destroyed the tyre walls.

You know this and must also concede that Mich are not clairvoyant. They could not for-see this issue.

[BDunnell]

ioan, you are being purposefully naive again I think.

Firestone had experience of running on the new surface and as they are owned by BS, then BS had testing data for their F1 race tyres.

Mich were not allowed to test and consequently found that the new diamond cut, coupled with the banked circuit, destroyed the tyre walls.

You know this and must also concede that Mich are not clairvoyant. They could not for-see this issue.

Come on, get with the programme! It was all David Coulthard's fault. If he, in his GPDA role, had inspected the track and then seen to it personally that the surface was changed, it would all have been different. However, because he now wants every driver in F1 to be killed as a result of his blatant disregard for safety, he didn't. Meanwhile, Lewis Hamilton couldn't be bothered to intervene either. I'm still appalled. ;)

[ioan]

ioan, you are being purposefully naive again I think.

Firestone had experience of running on the new surface and as they are owned by BS, then BS had testing data for their F1 race tyres.

Mich were not allowed to test and consequently found that the new diamond cut, coupled with the banked circuit, destroyed the tyre walls.

You know this and must also concede that Mich are not clairvoyant. They could not for-see this issue.

Who stopped Michelin from testing???
No one stopped them. I doubt that Tony George would have turned them down if they would have wanted to do a few laps on the circuit on a day when there was nothing else scheduled. Plus they can recreate everything on their testing machines, still they did nothing about it, unless you think that whining and finger pointing is something productive.

So, who stopped them???

I'm glad they are out of F1, we don't need people that try to win using the back door.

[jjanicke]

Who stopped Michelin from testing???
No one stopped them. I doubt that Tony George would have turned them down if they would have wanted to do a few laps on the circuit on a day when there was nothing else scheduled. Plus they can recreate everything on their testing machines, still they did nothing about it, unless you think that whining and finger pointing is something productive.

So, who stopped them???

I'm glad they are out of F1, we don't need people that try to win using the back door.

Come on.... you should know this.

Indy is not an FIA approved test track, and the regulations clearly state what type of testing and where they are allowed. I believe this was added to the concord agreement or sporting regulations a few years back.

[DonJippo]

Come on.... you should know this.

Indy is not an FIA approved test track, and the regulations clearly state what type of testing and where they are allowed. I believe this was added to the concord agreement or sporting regulations a few years back.

Formula 1 2005 sporting regulations says about testing the following:


TESTING
63) a) No testing is permitted at sites which are not currently approved for use by Formula 1 cars. In order to ensure that venue licence conditions are respected at all times during testing, Competitors are required to inform the FIA of their test schedule in order that an observer may be appointed if deemed necessary.
b) During all Formula One testing :
- red flag procedures must be respected ;
- no other type of vehicle is permitted on the track ;
- every reasonable effort should be made to ensure that the recommendations concerning emergency services detailed in Article 16 of Appendix H to the Code are followed.

To me this looks like it would have been possible to test in Indianapolis but don't know if there were some other limitations.

Source http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1929919630__2005F1SportingRegulations_a.pdf

[wmcot]

Sorry, but I lost track...are we blaming a bug in the ECU for the Michelin tire failures in 2005??? ;)

[Ranger]

To me this looks like it would have been possible to test in Indianapolis but don't know if there were some other limitations.
Limitations being that, unlike every other purpose-built racetrack on the calendar, the IMS Road course is not ready-made.

Therefore, an F1 test there in 2005 would have been next to impossible, it is way too impractical.

[Knock-on]

Who stopped Michelin from testing???
No one stopped them. I doubt that Tony George would have turned them down if they would have wanted to do a few laps on the circuit on a day when there was nothing else scheduled. Plus they can recreate everything on their testing machines, still they did nothing about it, unless you think that whining and finger pointing is something productive.

So, who stopped them???

I'm glad they are out of F1, we don't need people that try to win using the back door.

Go and dig up the original thread please. It was all explained there with all regulations.

Really, this is soooo old and Mich had no opportunity to test or rectify the situation when they realised that the high speed corner, coupled with the diamond cut of the track, was destroying the tyres.

As soon as they found out, they contacted Max in London (who stayed there well away from the farce that brought F1 into disrepute) and offered to ship alternative tyres but the FIA refused as they also did to a request to slow the cars with a chicane.

The result, well, we know :(

[ioan]

Limitations being that, unlike every other purpose-built racetrack on the calendar, the IMS Road course is not ready-made.

Therefore, an F1 test there in 2005 would have been next to impossible, it is way too impractical.

Michelin have their own test tracks, prepared for to test anything at any moment. They could also have replicated the conditions on a testing bench.

Problem is they didn't do anything, I think they didn't even bother to send an engineer check the track surface while deciding the tires they would bring to the race.
They did nothing to ensure their tires were adapted to the task.

[ioan]

Go and dig up the original thread please. It was all explained there with all regulations.

Really, this is soooo old and Mich had no opportunity to test or rectify the situation when they realised that the high speed corner, coupled with the diamond cut of the track, was destroying the tyres.

As soon as they found out, they contacted Max in London (who stayed there well away from the farce that brought F1 into disrepute) and offered to ship alternative tyres but the FIA refused as they also did to a request to slow the cars with a chicane.

The result, well, we know :(

What a load of bullcrap.
What if Airbus realizes that their plane can't land only after taking off?!
Michelin should have engineered their tires according to the race conditions, Who's job was to know what the race conditions will be?!
Was it Max' responsibility or Michelin's?!

Michelin were caught out because they threated the problems superficially. And such low level of professionalism shouldn't be accepted at the level of F1.

[Knock-on]

Michelin have their own test tracks, prepared for to test anything at any moment. They could also have replicated the conditions on a testing bench.

Problem is they didn't do anything, I think they didn't even bother to send an engineer check the track surface while deciding the tires they would bring to the race.
They did nothing to ensure their tires were adapted to the task.

( why do i bother :rolleyes: )

Of course, they can have a butchers at the tarmac and immediately guess what forces, G and attrition rates a F1 car will inflict on a tyre at 170 mph. :laugh:

Next you will suggest than instead of building wind tunnels, aero engineers should just fart over a sheet of paper and extrapolate up :laugh:

But, as you say, they couldn't be bothered. If you were in charge of Michelin, you would have had someone lick the circuit, design a F1 tyre on the back of a fag pack and be home by Tea.

Perhaps they should just hire a genius like you?

[ioan]

( why do i bother :rolleyes: )

Of course, they can have a butchers at the tarmac and immediately guess what forces, G and attrition rates a F1 car will inflict on a tyre at 170 mph. :laugh:


Did you ever hear about engineers?
Should I explain you how they go about their work?
Would like to know how many possibilities of predicting tire degradation and mechanical response they have? They can start with computer design and calculations and finishing with a testing bench.


Next you will suggest than instead of building wind tunnels, aero engineers should just fart over a sheet of paper and extrapolate up :laugh:

But, as you say, they couldn't be bothered. If you were in charge of Michelin, you would have had someone lick the circuit, design a F1 tyre on the back of a fag pack and be home by Tea.

Perhaps they should just hire a genius like you?

Thanks for demonstrating your intellectual level to all of us.
Next time when I need advice about farting over a sheet of paper I know I can rely on your expert opinion, however it obviously would be useless to share any engineering ideas with you, as I doubt you even know how to use a nail and hammer.

[Knock-on]

Did you ever hear about engineers?
Should I explain you how they go about their work?
Would like to know how many possibilities of predicting tire degradation and mechanical response they have? They can start with computer design and calculations and finishing with a testing bench.



Thanks for demonstrating your intellectual level to all of us.
Next time when I need advice about farting over a sheet of paper I know I can rely on your expert opinion, however it obviously would be useless to share any engineering ideas with you, as I doubt you even know how to use a nail and hammer.

PML

This from someone that believes Michelin can design a F1 tyre by taking a look at a track lol

You're talking rubbish and you know it. Michelin know a little more than you about designing tyres (shock, horror!!) and even they got it hopelessly wrong.

I'm sure that they are chastising themselves that instead of spending millions of $$$ developing, building and testing tyres for F1 teams, they should just send an engineer to a track to have a look at it.

So, either you know more about building tyres than Michelin or you're talking bollox again (yes, that was the word you used the other day :) )

I think that was an example of me using a hammer to hit a nail accurately on the head :laugh:

[Knock-on]

Well, back to the thread title.

Ferrari suffered engine problems probably brought on by the excessive heat and nothing to do with the ECU. :)

[janneppi]

Keep your personal comments to yourselves and discuss the matter in and, which sure as hell is'n Michelin.

[Bagwan]

Well, back to the thread title.

Ferrari suffered engine problems probably brought on by the excessive heat and nothing to do with the ECU. :)

There was a quote in the last day or 2 where Ron(I think) , defended Domenicalli and Ferrari , and said something about there being millimetres between the top teams .
I know , a little sketchy , but it was something like that .

Anyway , could that be a reference to McLaren mounting it in some way the others haven't tried -i.e.-spacing it up 2 or 3 mm from the mounting surface ?

[nigelred5]

hmmmmmmm, let me see, I'm sure there are very likely still wheel speed sensors, numerous brake sensors, an electronically operated transmission, ..... thinking out loud.......a pit speed limiter button....... I'm sure there is at least one accelerometer in the car somewhere......... :look: still just thinking out loud...... :s tareup: most early tc utilized brakes, not engine retardation......... pushing multiple buttons....... driver "inadvertently" hitting pit speed limiter coming off of corner...... :uhoh: rumours of ghosts........ hmmmmmmmm. :rolleyes: ;)

[jjanicke]

Ferrari certainly have their hands full. Multiple engine failures in P1 alone. Ouch. They better get to learning the ins and outs of the ECU fast, if that's really the problem.

[Knock-on]

Ferrari certainly have their hands full. Multiple engine failures in P1 alone. Ouch. They better get to learning the ins and outs of the ECU fast, if that's really the problem.

Ferrari have already said that the failures they have had are not to do with the ECU ;)