Engine rule

[Roy]

What is the engine rule in WRC for this year? Citroen has engine problems in Monte for Sordo. In Sweden he had a new one. Loeb had a problem in Sweden. Can he change the engine without penalty for Mexico. According the rules of last year was it possible.
I can remember this year is a new rule. What is this regulation?

[L5->R5/CR]

What is the engine rule in WRC for this year? Citroen has engine problems in Monte for Sordo. In Sweden he had a new one. Loeb had a problem in Sweden. Can he change the engine without penalty for Mexico. According the rules of last year was it possible.
I can remember this year is a new rule. What is this regulation?



I believe it works like this.

If the car finishes the rally, you can't change the motor without a penalty unless you have completed the 3 rally pairing for that motor.
If the car does not finish the rally, then you can replace whatever is needed to make the car be able to start the next rally.

Sordo's change was after Monte was over, while Loeb did not finish Sweden and therefore should be able to change the motor without penalty.

That is my understanding atleast.

[jiipee64]

I think they have to drive 3 rallies with same engine...

Sordo gained 1 Manu point from Monte.
If he had retired and then changed the engine he might have had 6 manu points instead of 3???

[DonJippo]

I believe it works like this.

If the car finishes the rally, you can't change the motor without a penalty unless you have completed the 3 rally pairing for that motor.
If the car does not finish the rally, then you can replace whatever is needed to make the car be able to start the next rally.

Sordo's change was after Monte was over, while Loeb did not finish Sweden and therefore should be able to change the motor without penalty.

That is my understanding atleast.

Correct plus that there is a limit to number of engines that can be used during the year, which is 5 per car for manufacturer.

[PuddleJumper]

Correct plus that there is a limit to number of engines that can be used during the year, which is 5 per car for manufacturer.
What happens if a team destroys 5 engines before the end of the season? Does that mean they can't compete in any more rallies?

[Camelopard]

What happens if a team destroys 5 engines before the end of the season? Does that mean they can't compete in any more rallies?

Yes, I was thinking about that as well, I presume there would be some sort of time penalty for the following rallies.

[jparker]

[quote="jiipee64"]I think they have to drive 3 rallies with same engine... quote]

The way I understand the rule, it's up to each team to decide how many rallies they run with the same engine. The only limit is 5 engines for the whole year. So, it's possible to run 11 events with same engine, and then use new engine for each of the remaining 4 events. Of course this doesn't make any sense. So, they don't have to use each engine 3 times, but most likely they will.
How they link each engine to what rally is entirely up to the team, therefore we don't know the links per team, but FIA does. This year FIA doesn't enforce the links, they just require the team to decide prior their first rally.

[Roy]

....
How they link each engine to what rally is entirely up to the team, therefore we don't know the links per team, but FIA does. This year FIA doesn't enforce the links, they just require the team to decide prior their first rally.

Hmm. A more open view like last year would be nice for the fans.

Interesting to see that Citroen, reliable in the past, build this season an engine it is not strong enough. Mexico and Argentinia would be a tough rally for a bad engine like that.

[Zico]

My understanding of the rules are the same as L5->R5/CR and DonJippo's 5 rallies per year point. I certainly wasnt aware of any changes.

I could be wrong but I dont believe that Citroen have suddenly developed engine reliability issues. When Loeb retired in Sweden I said immediately that he must have retired because he had no chance of a points finish and that it meant a fresh engine could be used for the next event..

Where can we find the exact regulations on the subject?

[DonJippo]

Where can we find the exact regulations on the subject?

Here you go paragraph 20

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/453A0607C228FAAEC12573DE002E29D4/$FILE/2008_WRC_Regulations_17_Dec.pdf?Openelement

[Zico]

Here you go paragraph 20

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/453A0607C228FAAEC12573DE002E29D4/$FILE/2008_WRC_Regulations_17_Dec.pdf?Openelement

Thanks Chief..

So...

20. ENGINES
20.1 Limitation of the number of Engines
The maximum number of engines which may be used
on a car at the discretion of the Manufacturer or
Manufacturer Team for the year is:
- 5 engines per Manufacturer’s car.
- 3 engines per car for a Manufacturer Team
which has nominated 10 Championship events.
- 4 engines per car for a Manufacturer Team
which has nominated 11 or 12 Championship events.

- 5 engines per car for a Manufacturer Team
which has nominated 13, 14 et 15 Championship
events.
For a Manufacturer or a Manufacturer Team, a list of
rallies intended to be run with the same engine (Links)
must be notified to the FIA prior to the first rally in
which they will take part.
Each engine will be assigned to a competitor’s
number.
For a Manufacturer Team which has nominated 10 to
12 Rallies, there must be a maximum of 4 Links.
For a Manufacturer Team which has nominated 13 to
15 Rallies, there must be a maximum of 5 Links.

20.2 Sealing of the engine
The engine of each car entered by a Manufacturer will
be sealed by a scrutineer at the start of the first rally of
each Link and must remain sealed until the end of the
final rally of the Link.
These seals may be destroyed only in the following
cases, without penalty:
- Change of oil pan (only under the supervision of
a scrutineer).
- If the car does not finish the first or the second
Rally of a Link (the new engine will be sealed before
the start of the next Rally). This new engine must
remain sealed until the final Rally of the Link.
- If a Manufacturer Team used an engine
previously used by a Manufacturer and still sealed.
If the car finishes the first and/or second Rally of a
Link (thus appearing in the final classification) and the
seals are found to be destroyed before the second or
third Rally of the Link (except for a change of oil pan),
a 5-minute penalty may be imposed by the stewards
at the next Rally.

20.3 Change of an engine
20.3.1 Between Scrutineering and starting park
For cars entered by a Manufacturer or a Manufacturer
Team, in the case of engine failure between
scrutineering and the start of the Rally, and only in
that case, it will be permitted to replace that engine
with a spare engine.
If this engine change takes place during the first rally
of a Link, no penalty will be applied.
If it takes place during the second or third rally of a
Link, a 5-minute penalty will be applied.
Only one spare engine per rally and per Manufacturer
is allowed. The identification numbers of the seals
must be declared at scrutineering.

20.3.2 After the start of Day 1
The change of an engine during a rally after the start
of Day 1 is not permitted.


23. MANDATORY ENGINE / CHASSIS PAIRING
23.1 Manufacturers
For the pairs of Rallies listed below, cars entered by a
Manufacturer must be equipped with the same engine
and the same chassis:
- Monte Carlo and Sweden
- Jordan and Italy
- Greece and Turkey
- New Zealand and Japan
- Spain and France
23.2 Manufacturer Teams
The engine and the chassis of cars entered by a
Manufacturer Team will be sealed together as
described above.
For Manufacturer Teams, a list of paired rallies will be
drawn up in association with the FIA Technical
Department at the moment of the team’s registration.
23.3 Infraction
Any infraction may result in a penalty imposed by the
Stewards.


Bit long winded but there we have it...

[jparker]

What happens if a team destroys 5 engines before the end of the season? Does that mean they can't compete in any more rallies?
These are the allowed number of engines if nothing goes wrong. Additional spare engine per rally is allowed.

"Only one spare engine per rally and per Manufacturer
is allowed"
... so, one car only per rally is covered.

[DonJippo]

These are the allowed number of engines if nothing goes wrong. Additional spare engine per rally is allowed.

They way I interpret the rule is that only five engines per car per year is allowed and in case you change the engine it becomes one of the five you are allowed to use but I might be wrong.

[jparker]

They way I interpret the rule is that only five engines per car per year is allowed and in case you change the engine it becomes one of the five you are allowed to use but I might be wrong.

I'm just speculating too, these rules are not easy to digest.
You may be right, but does that mean no spare engines?
If that's correct, then each engine failure will cost either 5 min penalty, or they have to use engine assigned to one of the upcoming links.

[Roy]

We have:
5 engines per car, 15 rallies in a year makes 3 rallies with same engine. Normaly.

Team can change an engine when they have doubt it is not good enough for a next rally and avoid a penalty (Gardemeister did it in Monte, Loeb in Sweden.) Sordo broke his engine and got a time penalty for Sweden.

The 3 drivers has left 4 engines.

What we have to know as fans is a list of rallies intended to be run with the same engine (Links). That can tell us about the problems some teams can have in the year. It is to complicated for now.

For now we know -or better we have a clue- the Citroen engine is not the reliable at the moment. But after two rallies any thing can happen. Not to worry about...yet.

[jparker]

We have:
5 engines per car, 15 rallies in a year makes 3 rallies with same engine. Normaly.

Team can change an engine when they have doubt it is not good enough for a next rally and avoid a penalty (Gardemeister did it in Monte, Loeb in Sweden.) Sordo broke his engine and got a time penalty for Sweden.

Not exactly. The car has to retire from rally (Toni and Seb) to be eligible for new engine in the next rally with no penalties. Sordo didn't retire, that's why he got the penalty.
Citroen didn't predict the outcome of Sweden correctly (Loeb retire, and Sorodo did better then expected), therefore the decision not to retire Sordo's car just fired back. Sordo could of scored 6 points in Swede without 5 min penalty, now he got only 4 + 1 from Monte = 5

[DonJippo]

I'm just speculating too, these rules are not easy to digest.
You may be right, but does that mean no spare engines?
If that's correct, then each engine failure will cost either 5 min penalty, or they have to use engine assigned to one of the upcoming links.

Engines are assigned to a link prior the first rally in which they will take part so it does not necessarily mean that you will use an engine from other link. When the link is finalized you can breake the seals and service the engine with spare parts under the conditions specified in paragraph 20.4 and after the service it is almost if not as good as a new one. So you could survive the season with less than five engines but don't know if it is possible in practise..

[bluuford]

I think that Citroen's decision in Monte was right. I cannot imagine Sordo getting 6 points from Sweden. With retiring in Monte he would have got almost the same starting position for the first day.. but for the next day (Saturday) he would have got much worse starting position with more snow. And he is not that good with more snow.
So, I say maximum 4 points. And he got 4 points. I think that Citroen won 1 point with Monte´s decision.

[euskalteam]

"20.3 Change of an engine
20.3.1 Between Scrutineering and starting park
For cars entered by a Manufacturer or a Manufacturer
Team, in the case of engine failure between
scrutineering and the start of the Rally, and only in
that case, it will be permitted to replace that engine
with a spare engine.
If this engine change takes place during the first rally
of a Link, no penalty will be applied.
If it takes place during the second or third rally of a
Link, a 5-minute penalty will be applied.
Only one spare engine per rally and per Manufacturer
is allowed. The identification numbers of the seals
must be declared at scrutineering."

Reading this, I understand that if Sordo were retired from Monte he didn't got penalty, but if the engine is replaces during the second or third rally of a link, anyway you get a 5-minute penalty, so if Loeb change the engine after Sweden he will have this penalty, isn't??

[DonJippo]

"20.3 Change of an engine
20.3.1 Between Scrutineering and starting park
For cars entered by a Manufacturer or a Manufacturer
Team, in the case of engine failure between
scrutineering and the start of the Rally, and only in
that case, it will be permitted to replace that engine
with a spare engine.
If this engine change takes place during the first rally
of a Link, no penalty will be applied.
If it takes place during the second or third rally of a
Link, a 5-minute penalty will be applied.
Only one spare engine per rally and per Manufacturer
is allowed. The identification numbers of the seals
must be declared at scrutineering."

Reading this, I understand that if Sordo were retired from Monte he didn't got penalty, but if the engine is replaces during the second or third rally of a link, anyway you get a 5-minute penalty, so if Loeb change the engine after Sweden he will have this penalty, isn't??

No because he did not finish in Sweden so he can change the engine without penalty. This rule you quoted here is for a case you have finalised the previous event and the engine breakes before the start of next event after the scrutineering for that event. This is also the only case when you can change your engine in an event otherwise it's not allowed.

[Brother John]

No because he did not finish in Sweden so he can change the engine without penalty. This rule you quoted here is for a case you have finalised the previous event and the engine breakes before the start of next event after the scrutineering for that event. This is also the only case when you can change your engine in an event otherwise it's not allowed.

So, Citroën out of engines for Finland 2008? :p : :s mokin: ;)

[jparker]

"20.3 Change of an engine
20.3.1 Between Scrutineering and starting park
For cars entered by a Manufacturer or a Manufacturer
Team, in the case of engine failure between
scrutineering and the start of the Rally, and only in
that case, it will be permitted to replace that engine
with a spare engine.
If this engine change takes place during the first rally
of a Link, no penalty will be applied.
If it takes place during the second or third rally of a
Link, a 5-minute penalty will be applied.
Only one spare engine per rally and per Manufacturer
is allowed. The identification numbers of the seals
must be declared at scrutineering."

Reading this, I understand that if Sordo were retired from Monte he didn't got penalty, but if the engine is replaces during the second or third rally of a link, anyway you get a 5-minute penalty, so if Loeb change the engine after Sweden he will have this penalty, isn't??

No. Section 20.3.1 deals with "Between Scrutineering and starting park" only.

[OldF]

By the Finnish rally magazine ”Vauhdin Maailma”, Citroën has a new engine type (EW10J4S) this year and it gives them considerably better potential for new homologations. I don’t know how this match with the paragraph 20.4, engine development. :confused: