What DO I hate? (Not the thread you think it is.)

[garyshell]

With all of the turmoil going on the past couple of weeks and watching folks taking some serious pot shots at each other, I have thrown out the occasional barb that it's "fence mendin' time".

So I have been thinking what is it that I really DO hate about the IRL and the prospect of the merger.


I do and always will hate "...king George" for his temper tantrum in 1996 that got us into this mess. (I don't need anyone's history lesson to dissuade me from this. I was intently listening to ALL the goings on in 1994-1996 leading up to this. It's my opinion and I am sticking to it.)[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I do hate that the IRL cars run 100% throttle on damn near all the ovals.[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I do hate Michael Andretti, not for his participation in the IRL, this goes way back to when he was in CART. I booed his sorry ass every year during the driver parade laps at Mid Ohio. I feel this way because he thinks the world owes him. He whined and blamed everyone else for every on track mistake he ever made.[/*:m:1t6qgliz]That's it. That's my list! I realized that this was really and truly the sum total of my ill will about the past 13 years. I realized:

I don't hate the drivers.[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I don't hate the mechanics.[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I don't hate the "guys back in the shop"[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I don't hate the folks manning the souvenir booths for the teams.[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I don't hate the rest of the hundreds of folks in support roles.[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I don't hate the owners. (They many decisions knowing the impact it would have on the hungry mouths of four year old kids in the families of the folks mentioned above. I'm not being melodramatic about that either. I've been there. I've had to make payroll before.)[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I don't love the look of the car, but it will be gone in 2010 anyway.[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I don't hate the tracks. (There are a couple I don't love.)[/*:m:1t6qgliz]
I don't hate oval races. (See #2 above) I grew up with a diverse schedule and I still miss it.[/*:m:1t6qgliz]So, there's MY list. I am not happy that "...king George" appears to have prevailed in all of this, but knowing where my REAL hatred lies, I am ready to move on.

And in the spirit of fence mendin', I invite the rest of you to take a similar inventory.

I don't want to see this thread turn into an argument about who is right and who is wrong. In fact ,I will do my best to squash that in this thread and will ask for Starter's help in that regard. I will ask him to immediately delete any and all replies that event hint at the suggestion that someone's list is wrong. If you got a beef with someone's item or list, start your own damn thread. OK? :s mokin:

Gary

[Chris R]

Gary, Very well put.

I absolutely agree on points #1 and #2 in things you do hate.

I am not a fan of Michael Andretti - but I would not put him in the "hate" category.

I would add that I do hate NASCAR and while I do watch it occasionally, I find it not much different that the WWE. No matter how much I can't stand TG, I can't stand the modern version of NASCR even more.....

I also agree with the rest of your list.

As you say, it is time for fence mending. If we feel we must be a war with someone, lets make it NASCAR - not another branch of AOWR.....

Gentlemen, start your Peace-Pipes!

[Fangio]

You forgot the IRL`s marketing campaigns, that`s some good hating right there.
Anyone for a shot of "I am Indy" from the great Gene Simmons this morning? :D

[Chris R]

I thought Gene Simmons was a joke at first - but a month or two back he was being interviewed on a philly rock station morning show (WMMR). He put in a huge plug for Indycar - also heard/saw him do it somewhere else as well...

My point is, yeah the song is goofy, but we all talk about it anyway and the guy is actually plugging the series he works for.... he is generating some press which is not a bad thing.....

also, I am thinking that TG did not come up with the idea to get Helio on Dancing with the Stars or Danica into the swimsuit issue....
anyway, I really don't mean to defend Gene Simmons and "I am Indy" - just point out that perhaps he is not a much of a joke as many of us first thought.....

[Fangio]

True, but in general it`s all a bit goofy. Remember when they photographed every driver standing on one leg, arms in strange positions? oh, boy.

[garyshell]

I thought Gene Simmons was a joke at first - but a month or two back he was being interviewed on a philly rock station morning show (WMMR). He put in a huge plug for Indycar - also heard/saw him do it somewhere else as well...

My point is, yeah the song is goofy, but we all talk about it anyway and the guy is actually plugging the series he works for.... he is generating some press which is not a bad thing.....

also, I am thinking that TG did not come up with the idea to get Helio on Dancing with the Stars or Danica into the swimsuit issue....
anyway, I really don't mean to defend Gene Simmons and "I am Indy" - just point out that perhaps he is not a much of a joke as many of us first thought.....


True, but in general it`s all a bit goofy. Remember when they photographed every driver standing on one leg, arms in strange positions? oh, boy.


Take it elsewhere guys. This is NOT the thread to discuss who's list is right or wrong. This thread is ONLY, I repeat ONLY, for folks to air thier own lists. Period. OK?

(I am not trying to pick on either of you. I just want to get the precedent set. Fangio's addition to my list is in keeping with my intent here. Chris's comment and subsequent conversation is not.)

Gary

[David St. Hubbins]

Gary, I wish I could add more, but if I'm to be truly honest, I can't. You have a good post there.

As for Gene Simmons, I won't fault him, because he does what's in his best interest, and that's find a way to make a buck. While I'm not as greedy as he is, that's the way it is in this society, and there's nothing wrong with it. If he's plugging the series he's contracted for, then you can bet he's not doing it just because he feels it in his heart (that could be one reason, but one look at his history of merchandising Kiss will tell you he'll get every buck he can get, and I'll repeat that in a capitalistic society, you can't fault someone for that).

OT, I wonder what tg will do (if anything) to bring the rest of us to the fold?

[Chris R]

T. Chris's comment and subsequent conversation is not.)

Gary

no problem - didn't mean to sidetrack things....

[bennybigb]

I also hate the look of the IRL car.

Sure the cars will be all new for 2010, but I bet somehow Boy George will find a way to make the cars even uglier. I don't know how he will do it, but I am sure he will find a way.

This is open wheel racing in America? God help us all......

ALMS here I come!!!! (and F1, GP2, & Vintage)

[CCFan]

Gary, yours is a fairly comprehensive list. Good thoughts.

[champcarray]

On top of the hates already mentioned (TFG, wide-open throttles, and those Dallaras):

I do hate the opportunistic actions of Roger Penske. People admire his entrepreneurial success, but I believe that many of his actions over the past 15 years have irreparably damaged AOWR.

I also hate that Dan Gurney is no longer involved in AOWR!

[FormerFF]

I don't hate anything about the IRL. I have a lot of contempt for Tony George, but hate is too strong a word. It's what I don't like that will keep me away from most of the combined series, and that is superspeedway oval racing. I'd much rather see wingless sprinters on a short oval than these guys going around an oval at full throttle. When I say I don't like high speed oval racing, it's not that I dislike it, it's just something I'm not interested in.

[Lousada]

"...king George"

I hate the endless insults to people you don't even know.

[garyshell]

I hate the endless insults to people you don't even know.


Fair enough, in keeping with my intent with this thread and a bit of "eating my own dog food" I won't defend my use of the term.

But I do want to remind folks that the thread is NOT just about what you hate, it is also about what revelations can you now make about what you DON'T hate? What, if anything, do you see in the that is beginning to help YOU "mend the fence"?

Gary

[David St. Hubbins]

what revelations can you now make about what you DON'T hate? What, if anything, do you see in the that is beginning to help YOU "mend the fence"?

Gary
One thing I don't hate is the fact that there will be strength in numbers (re: drivers in particular, but also engineers and other support personnel), and the potential for AOWR (eventually) to fight nascar for the hearts and remotes of the fan and TV viewer.

[cartpix]

As FormerFF said, hate is a strong word. I have very little. I hate the fact that AOWR was split, in the first place. That's about it. Both sides had their reasons & I wasn't a part of it. I'm not too happy about how the merge seems to be going. I had always hoped it would go the other way. But it didn't. I can except that. Most of the drivers / teams, in the IRL, are teams & drivers I supported in CART, so I can't hate them. They made their decisions the way race car drivers / teams, have moved from series to series, since the dawn of auto racing.

I'm glad the split is looking like it will end. I will watch the new unifed series. If I'm lucky, I will shoot the new series. That's up to my editor.

Jeff

[clydekart]

With all of the turmoil going on the past couple of weeks and watching folks taking some serious pot shots at each other, I have thrown out the occasional barb that it's "fence mendin' time".

So I have been thinking what is it that I really DO hate about the IRL and the prospect of the merger.

[:

Gary

I don't "HATE" but I will tell you what I like about CC that the IRL does not provide.

1. Standing starts
2. Turbos
3. "Race Cars" that are pleasing to look at
4. Safer because NO Boring Ovals
5.Venues in the US and Canada (also other Countries)
6.I couuld go on but I don't have the time...................

[bblocker68]

True, but in general it`s all a bit goofy. Remember when they photographed every driver standing on one leg, arms in strange positions? oh, boy.


Maybe that was for a "soon-to-be" Captain Morgan add??

What do I hate? Gene Simmons. He should be remembered for his great quotes, such as, "Dan Wheldon is a great, young American driver".

DOH!!!!!!!

The coolest thing I WONT hate:

Old and new rivalries brought back to life!!

[UDFlyer]

Things I hate:

1. Tony George, who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.
2. *****wagons, that sound like ***** and look even worse.
3. Managed racing, EG secretly letting Danica have power steering to try steal a win for her.
4. Tony George, for fixing a problem that did not exist.
5. *****wagons, that take flight and will kill a large number of spectators if luck ever goes bad at a track at which there are actual fans present.
6. Managed racing, EG adding power steering to help Danica's chances of finally winning a race.
7. Tony George, for destroying the greatest race in the world, all for his self-serving need for power. Now when someone says "500" the normal person thinks Daytona instead of Indy. :(
8. *****wagons, which are the ugliest Indy cars ever, like an otherwise-beautiful woman with a 10-inch nose and an huge ass.
9. Managed racing, EG adding a new rule which sounds like removes the weight advantage that skinny drivers have (IE Danica), but in actual fact does very little.
10. Tony George, did I mention him?

As for the fence-mending, I'm not holding my breath. Before the split, I went to the Indy 500 about 25 times, and about another 100 days for practice and qualifying. Since then, I've gone to as many as 8 CART/Champ Car races in one year. I miss only the old 500 before its destruction -- don't miss the current format at all. If this 'merger' goes through as rumored, it could be that Long Beach will be my last indy-style race - might be time to start going to more races on dirt, local figure 8's, drag racing, motorcycles, American LeMans, F1, etc.

[NOVI]

Dislike:
cookie-cutter chassis, either series
sealed-leased engines, either series
all or nothing attitudes

I'm pushing 60 years, would like to see innovative, challenging, "wide-angle" approach to open wheel racing before my "last lap". Here's a pint in hope that all this is not so much an end as a beginning.

[Miatanut]

I rooted for Mikey back in the day, and I hate Pimpski.

Otherwise, Gary's list matches mine. :up:

[TU Homer]

I basically posted the same thing over at the smack, and am out of practice of reading the boards so have not posted in a while. I agree with Gary Shell. But want to put it a little different... Would like Indycool and other TG apologists to respond.

What has been accomplished? How different is IRL'08 than CART'94?

And what has changed since Tony started his tantrum? We're still gunning for a championship and not just IRL500. We still run a growing number of roads/streets. We still have series owners owning cars. We're owned by Japan, even have to go beg those folks to let us merge open wheels. We're still shifting outside the US borders. We still don't have a path for the local racers running the dirt tracks. IRL is based on the CART traditions.

Why would Tony not start a competing league to the IRL for the same reasons he started IRL to begin with?


-TU

[Miatanut]

Why would Tony not start a competing league to the IRL for the same reasons he started IRL to begin with?


-TU

Because CART has been killed.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423669&postcount=4

[UDFlyer]

Things I hate:

1. Tony George, who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.
2. *****wagons, that sound like ***** and look even worse.
3. Managed racing, EG secretly letting Danica have power steering to try steal a win for her.
4. Tony George, for fixing a problem that did not exist.
5. *****wagons, that take flight and will kill a large number of spectators if luck ever goes bad at a track at which there are actual fans present.
6. Managed racing, EG adding power steering to help Danica's chances of finally winning a race.
7. Tony George, for destroying the greatest race in the world, all for his self-serving need for power. Now when someone says "500" the normal person thinks Daytona instead of Indy. :(
8. *****wagons, which are the ugliest Indy cars ever, like an otherwise-beautiful woman with a 10-inch nose and an huge ass.
9. Managed racing, EG adding a new rule which sounds like removes the weight advantage that skinny drivers have (IE Danica), but in actual fact does very little.
10. Tony George, did I mention him?

As for the fence-mending, I'm not holding my breath. Before the split, I went to the Indy 500 about 25 times, and about another 100 days for practice and qualifying. Since then, I've gone to as many as 8 CART/Champ Car races in one year. I miss only the old 500 before its destruction -- don't miss the current format at all. If this 'merger' goes through as rumored, it could be that Long Beach will be my last indy-style race - might be time to start going to more races on dirt, local figure 8's, drag racing, motorcycles, American LeMans, F1, etc.


I should've added:

11. Tony George, because the so-and-so is going to win, and I'm a sore loser! :)

Also, my apologies for making a post that required editing. I didn't realize the guidelines here would forbid using the word that Paul Tracy made famous a few years ago when someone asked him if he wanted to drive in the IRL.

[TU Homer]

Because CART has been killed.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423669&postcount=4

I think it changed names to IRL.

I guess my point was, if IRL is what CART was, then why did he create IRL?

Hint, it rhymes with scrontrol.

[UDFlyer]

I think it changed names to IRL.

I guess my point was, if IRL is what CART was, then why did he create IRL?

Hint, it rhymes with scrontrol.

Yes, or spower.

[dataman1]

Gary,

Great topic and a good idea in "mending fences".

I will say I hate Greed. That evil force that made the CART owners go public to cash in. The evil that made TG create the IRL. Greed, the force that made Penske break away from the series he built to keep Marlboro money. Or the greed that Team Target used to keep its sponsor rather than honor the friendships of brother racers.

Mending fences will take some time but can be realized provided all parties (fans, drivers, teams, mechanics, sponsors, etc..) are treated with respect. I believe Gary is setting an example by getting the hate out of the way so the healing can begin.

Again, Great post Gary.

[nanders]

On top of the hates already mentioned (TFG, wide-open throttles, and those Dallaras):

I do hate the opportunistic actions of Roger Penske. People admire his entrepreneurial success, but I believe that many of his actions over the past 15 years have irreparably damaged AOWR.

I also hate that Dan Gurney is no longer involved in AOWR!

And Jim Hall

[garyshell]

Because CART has been killed.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423669&postcount=4


I think it changed names to IRL.

I guess my point was, if IRL is what CART was, then why did he create IRL?

Hint, it rhymes with scrontrol.


Yes, or spower.


Remember guys if you want to discuss what is wrong with someone else's list, start your own damn thread!!! <big ol' grin>

Seriously, stay on topic. This is NOT the who's list is right or who's list is wrong thread. It's ONLY, I repeat ONLY, the "What DO you hate and what don't you hate about the IRL and the impending merger" thread. The purpose of this thread is to air our thoughts. If you want to take exception to someone's thoughts, start another thread.

Gary

[garyshell]

Gary,

Great topic and a good idea in "mending fences".

I will say I hate Greed. That evil force that made the CART owners go public to cash in. The evil that made TG create the IRL. Greed, the force that made Penske break away from the series he built to keep Marlboro money. Or the greed that Team Target used to keep its sponsor rather than honor the friendships of brother racers.

Mending fences will take some time but can be realized provided all parties (fans, drivers, teams, mechanics, sponsors, etc..) are treated with respect. I believe Gary is setting an example by getting the hate out of the way so the healing can begin.

Again, Great post Gary.


Precisely the point. I pondered this a lot over the weekend. I asked myself what is it that kept me away from the IRL for 13 years? And can I get over it, if the merger occurs? I realized what it was, and that I could.

Gary

[garyshell]

Just a note to everyone participating in this thread. Starter has accepted my request to drop any messages that question if anyone's list is right or wrong. (And now I owe him a case of beer!)

Starter has already cleaned out a few such messages.

For those of you who DID question someone's list, I encourage you to create your own and post 'em. It's a cathartic process, I can assure you.

Gary

[Civic]

I don't like how the Amigos were lauded for bringing out the DP01, saving what was left of CART from Tony George during bankruptcy proceedings, and continuing with Champ Car only to be turned upon by fans. But I do understand that some of the anger comes from passionate fans distraught at what "our" series has become.

I don't like how the IRL morphed into what CART was.

I don't like what Tony George did, but that doesn't mean I forgot about some of the arrogant CART board members that probably had more of a hand in bringing about the split.

I like IRL fans, but not IRL snobs.

I hate Danica-mania. I guess winning the Indy 500 doesn't matter much, right Wheldon?

I hate Helio's second Indy 500 "win" and the controversy surrounding it.

[V12]

Well basically, I hate spec-chassis/engine series, for which BOTH series are guilty as charged, either by rule or by natural selection, and I will be very disappointed if any merged series takes this route in the long run (of course I realise for 2008, and probably 2009 this may be something we have to live with).

And as of right now that's pretty much it!

I hated the fact that for a few years I lost out on the Indy 500 as a meaningful spectacle, but by 2001/2002 that was in the past for me.

And I would add Danicamania to the list, but at the end of the day having a driver to root against as well as driver(s) to root for, a villain of the piece, just adds to the fun - of course it helps if said driver is actually talented (Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton etc.) but what the hell :)

[beachgirl]

I try very hard (not always successfully) to keep actual hate out of my life because it is so black and negative. I dislike whole bunches of things, including most of the list on the original post. But you know, at the end of the day, we will have whatever racing series prevails in this drama. It looks like it'll have some ovals, some road courses. I think it'll probably have enough of each (hopefully) to keep most fans at least neutral. And know what? Every TV comes with an on/off, and if the only series we have left is running a race that's not your preference, change the channel. And check out some of the other forms of racing already mentioned here. Horizons may surprisingly be broadened, and those other series' will pick up new fans. (I'm not talking the N word here!). There's no law anywhere that says you can be a fan of only one series. You can be a fan of many.

[garyshell]

Remember folks, my original post listed the things I hate, BUT (and this was the IMPORTANT part) it also listed the things that I realized that I didn't hate. Come on gang, lets hear THAT part too. That's where the catharsis comes!

Gary

[Miatanut]

Precisely the point. I pondered this a lot over the weekend. I asked myself what is it that kept me away from the IRL for 13 years? And can I get over it, if the merger occurs? I realized what it was, and that I could.

Gary

#1 on the hate list is something I won't be able to overcome.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I do hate that the IRL cars run 100% throttle on damn near all the ovals.

Maybe Tony Cotman can fix the rules and mandate less wing from this season? Here's hoping. I can't stand "side by side" parades, I'd like to see real oval races like in the nineties. Unfortunately, nearly all the mile tracks are gone and most of the ovals are 1.5 mile nascar cookie cutters. Still, is there a way to achieve that?

[garyshell]

#1 on the hate list is something I won't be able to overcome.

What, if anything, did you realize that you didn't hate?

Gary

[TU Homer]

Remember guys if you want to discuss what is wrong with someone else's list, start your own damn thread!!! <big ol' grin>

Seriously, stay on topic. This is NOT the who's list is right or who's list is wrong thread. It's ONLY, I repeat ONLY, the "What DO you hate and what don't you hate about the IRL and the impending merger" thread. The purpose of this thread is to air our thoughts. If you want to take exception to someone's thoughts, start another thread.

Gary

I guess my format was incorrect. So let's try this:

I hate TG for becoming what he destroyed.


Unlike you, I don't believe I can get past that item. But you are correct, it makes me feel better.


-TU

[Mark in Oshawa]

Since a merger seems immenient, but not here yet, this is a great thread to bare one's sole.

Things I like? The fact that the IRL has some interesting drivers with some history with fans. Unlike the revolving door of drivers CCWS has endured of late, the IRL did a reasonable job until this last year of hanging on to guys, and there still is a good core to work with.

I like the quality of the team owners and fact that after the first decade of the IRL, Tony has finally gotten the series on tracks that seem to want the series. With a CCWS merger, I hope that the series will be appreciated.

I hate..... well I don't like what Tony did. I will never "love" the guy but in the last few years I realized forgiving him may be something we all need to do. That man made a massive mistake and cost the sport and everyone a lot of money and no one in a sense has paid that price more than Tony. I hate the fact that the 500 has about 5 winners that wouldn't have likely won if the split never happened. (Buddy Lazier, I am mainly talking to YOU).

I hate the fact that IRL cars are all funny looking and it is spec racing, but hey the DP-01 is just a pretty spec racing car as well, so that isn't really the IRL's fault that we have spec racing in a sense, it is part and parcel of the struggle for "Competitive balance" and "Cost containment" that has happened to racing in the last decade.

I hate cookie cutter NASCAR ovals for OW cars. That said, Tony would have to be a bigger idiot than we think he is to turn down a 6 figure date like he gets in Texas. You have to go where the fans are at times, and Texas has done will with the IRL. Tracks such as Michigan, Fontana, Kansas and Chicagoland have bugged me for NASCAR, much less OW cars. If we have to run half the series on ovals, may they be interesting or difficult to get around places like Richmond, Iowa, Phoenix and of course....Indy.

I hate the negativeity on both sides that has kept this feud going, and I am guilty as anyone for a lot of years for it. That said, we gotta face the reality that by the end of this year, there will be likely only one open wheeled series and it will be either an IRL that survives the total collapse of CCWS or a merged greater series.....

We may not like it but we have to deal with it...

[Wraith]

What do I hate.

...what...do I HATE...

Strong wording, as said by others, earlier in this thread.

For something to truly be hated, in my mind, there has to be a level of irrationality about the idea that is as "self-evident" as any of the points that Mr. Jefferson once commented, and got a bunch of his friends to agree, in writing, upon. Things that I HATE...have to be, upon deliberation that never truly concludes, ridiculously stupid...mixed with a good degree of contempt, on the hated thing's part, for the golden memories and/or special qualities of What Has Gone Before. I dislike a lot of things in the modern open-wheel racing world, to be sure...but Hate?

Truth be told, I have always been and will ever remain, throughout this AOW-Civil War, an "IRLian". I...disliked...CART back in 1995 (thought I hated it; came to understand differently after raking through both the good and the bad; more on this to follow, much further on down), and I was glad when Tony George broke off from a group of individuals that seemed hell-bent on making the sport as aristocratic, AND as boring, as F1 often seemed to be (and still is, to some extent).

I LIKED the idea of trying to get back to the feeling of, at the root of it all, Indycar racing of the 1970s. The wings, there, the power awesome...and the writers of Sports Illustrated screaming about how the open-wheel cars were "b/st/rd machines" (direct quote) fit only for psychopaths (or at least they did just after 1973). I LOVED the idea of putting oval racing back to its rightful place of being on at least 50/50 even footing with the road and street courses. At least, with single-car domination on an oval course, the leader has to constantly go through lap traffic, which will always be more interesting to me than what amounts to 63 laps of a private testing session, and 10 laps of trying to overtake people. I LOVE watching single-seaters...whether they be overpowering, 50-second-lead UBERmachines (the turbine) or some seemingly minor battle back amongst back-markers...race on ovals. It's GLORIOUS...

And so, in reverse, if I LOVE certain things, I will easily concede that I HATE...other things; even if that's a very strong word for anything involving open-wheel. What those things are, then...the true test. After considerable deliberation...the answers might surprise.

A warning:
This list is very...VERY...long.

1. I hate Vince McMahon (or the Vince McMahon Effect, in motorsports).

This is not an open-wheel subject, per se. That, part of the point. Most of the things I either hate or don't hate about open-wheel racing, or auto racing in general, can be traced to things not at all limited to them alone. If I hate it in racing, I'll likely hate it in baseball, in football; if I love it in racing, I'll likely love it in politics. Weltanshauung is a wonderful word.

Therefore, I don't hate him per se. I UTTERLY DESPISE what he stands for, the mixing of entertainment-oriented USELESSNESS into what was once kind of like a sport: professional wrestling. And whither McMahon went, many other subjects/thing followed. Automobile racing, of the taxicab variety, one of them.

Ever notice how NASCAR's extension of the races past their APPROPRIATE END POINT was in order to increase the perceived Excitement Level? Given that this is an open-wheel forum, I'll assume it to be a yes on the level of "sporting with one's intellect" (and for which I apologize, actually). Ever notice how "All Part Of The Show" has been their mode of operation since inception?

Show. Entertainment. Barnum&Bailey. Upon reflection, I also highly dislike circuses.

SPORT...motorsport...should not be like that. If one car, one team, one driver, is THAT much better? The rest should answer the call. I would add, "Or get out of the game," but that's usually the highly undesirable result. When Honda started rolling all the time, Chevy ran. Toyota ran.

Cowards. Pure, unadulterated, cowardice.

SPORT...should be rule-based competition. How many people would be in favor of adding extra minute to the end of an NFL game, if the game were not tied, just for excitement purposes?? I mean COME ON. 11 innings to a baseball game, with the score 9-2? What the hell?! Why, then, do people consider it par for the course these days, in motorsport? Or maybe, why does so much of America seem to approve?

I hate what McMahon stands for. I HATE IT. Give the people what they clamor for, change the rules so their favorites can win?? Oh yeah, not "favorites"...they're called Faces, aren't they. And the "villains" are called Heels. All part of the show, all part of the script.

A face won last Saturday night at Daytona, didn't he. Ever lauds it as the best possible start to the NASCAR season. Gotta get those bloody ratings; gotta rake in those TV contracts, even if it means tweaking the rules for the paying customer a little. All part of the showww...

----

At this point, I'm realizing that this list is going to be so exhaustive and long that it will require breaking it up into different posts. Oh well...probably better that way anyway.
Until next time, fellow rationally-thinking, red-blooded humans.
Long live reality, long live open-wheel racing, long live Indy.

[SoCalPVguy]

I've given up hate.

Stared at Denial, then Anger, went on to Bargaining, through Depression and now I'm into Acceptance.

I guess I 'hate' the bargaining going on this board, for example merged srebies "must have" Panoz, no TG control, no cookie cutter ovals, turbos only.... We have no power here to bargain for anything. My advice is to ride it out.

Here is a very funny video"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBlIoCzzvbg&NR=1

Actually the clusterf--- reunification process reminds me more of the five stages of a project:

1) wild enthusiasm; 2) hopeless despair; 3) search for the guilty; 4) blame of the innocent; 5) praise and honor for nonparticipants.

I see most of you guys on this board as #1'ers or #2'ers, I'm an evolved person myself and have moved onto No. 5 as I have had nothing to do with this (except to see it coming a mile away) *LOL*

OK on topic: I hate the ucla bruins and the nueter dame irish. I hate not getting paid on time by my clients, I hate old ladies in Buicks that drive 20-mph in a 35-mph zone, although it looks like the Camry has surpassed the Regal as codger vehicle of choice; I hate Mesa AZ (don't ask why); I do not hate the IRL or TG anymore altough a couple of years ago I sure did; I hate not knowing what's not going on; I hate the fact the all of open wheel racing sucks right now and unless it is reunified in ANY manner it will soon be gone.

[garyshell]

I guess my format was incorrect. So let's try this:

I hate TG for becoming what he destroyed.


Unlike you, I don't believe I can get past that item. But you are correct, it makes me feel better.


-TU


There ya go! A much better "format", if you will.

Gary

[garyshell]

Since a merger seems immenient, but not here yet, this is a great thread to bare one's sole.


What do I hate.

...what...do I HATE...

Strong wording, as said by others, earlier in this thread.



I've given up hate.

Stared at Denial, then Anger, went on to Bargaining, through Depression and now I'm into Acceptance.



See guys, doesn't that feel better? (Gawd, I am starting to sound like freakin' Dr. Phil...) Seriously though, I am seeing a real pattern emerge here. The pattern being a lot of us staring down the demons that have been developed over the past 13 years, and realizing what it was that we REALLY wanted even back then.

Gary

[Miatanut]

What, if anything, did you realize that you didn't hate?

Gary

I agreed with your full list of not hates. Well, except for Pimpski on #6. For the rest of them, I would agree on #6.

For me, #1 on the hate list has been the focus all along. The rest of the people in the sport just trying to make a living in racing or keep their employees employed.

Number 3 on your hate list wasn't on my hate list, so I substituted Pimpski there.

Number 2 on your hate list would be something that would make me not watch, because I wouldn't find it interesting.

That leaves me with three things on the hate list which are more than enough to keep me away.

On the other hand, they are all things that the remaining series could fix, if they chose to. Then I would come back.

[LTalbot]

Dislike:
cookie-cutter chassis, either series
sealed-leased engines, either series
all or nothing attitudes

I'm pushing 60 years, would like to see innovative, challenging, "wide-angle" approach to open wheel racing before my "last lap". Here's a pint in hope that all this is not so much an end as a beginning.

I could not agree more.

[Chaparral66]

Gary,

Great topic and a good idea in "mending fences".

I will say I hate Greed. That evil force that made the CART owners go public to cash in. The evil that made TG create the IRL. Greed, the force that made Penske break away from the series he built to keep Marlboro money. Or the greed that Team Target used to keep its sponsor rather than honor the friendships of brother racers.

Mending fences will take some time but can be realized provided all parties (fans, drivers, teams, mechanics, sponsors, etc..) are treated with respect. I believe Gary is setting an example by getting the hate out of the way so the healing can begin.

Again, Great post Gary.


What gets me is that it's not like Penske needs the money. He is at least a billionaire once or twice over with all the businesses he owns and he can fund them himself, but why do that when you can spend someone else's money? He didn't get that wealthy by being stupid...

[Brad Erman]

I've given up hate.

Stared at Denial, then Anger, went on to Bargaining, through Depression and now I'm into Acceptance.

Too funny and very close to home.

[Wraith]

See guys, doesn't that feel better?

A little; I'm far from finished.

Volume II, in the It's Always Something series...

2. I hate the glamorization of CART of the mid-1990s.

This might rankle a lot of people here, if not outright ***** them off or worse. I'm somewhat sorry...for causing any riling; not for the conviction of my belief.

CART of the mid-1990s was, on the whole, a series that was beginning to sell out (or had completely sold out already) to the siren-call of The Glamour, a full ten years before that same phenomenon would hit NASCAR in a completely new and even more horrifying way. To understand what this is supposed to mean, a study of the word Glamour should be briefly undertaken.

A word that harkens back to some of the very beginnings of the "modern" (post-Battle of Hastings, 1066 A.D.) English language, "glamour" has been a word altered, at first subtlely, then more violently, over the past 200 years or so, but especially the last century. Where once it implied "magic," for all intents, the radiating "glow" (think Galadriel's entrance in The Lord of the Rings) of whatever spectacular subject or being...over time, due both to the impact of royalty, even more specifically big money (even back then), and the fading of the old myths into distant memory, glamour started to shift its meaning, becoming "sparkling," "dynamic," and eventually meaning something all but worshipped by the people at large...in other words, a lot that has come to be synonymous with American Idol, these days. With modern popular culture, it has taken on the tones of being affiliated with "celebrity," and any subject having to do with "The In-Crowd."

This is not an English language seminar, however. Glamour, in its modern incarnation, lures many into selling out, for all intents, the soul of what they do for a living for the chance to play at being a demigod (which comes full circle, harkening back, as said, to the old days). Consider the situation of CART, in the last days of decent balance between ovals and road courses.

By the late 1980s, ovals had begun a downward spiral in CART that only continued to gain in prominence as the years wore on. Pocono had been removed from the schedule due to disrepair (for OW cars...not the billboard tanks), and most of the courses of the old USAC emphasis on ovals had been dropped in favor of the new, and, effectively, much more F1-like street and road courses of the international flavor. The old, almost cowboy-like wild-wild world of open-wheel racing...which we'll term, for emotional implication, as Steak and Eggs...of the 1950s through 1970s had been replaced, on so many racing dates...by Champaigne and Caviar. Europeanized, in other words: living the high-life, rich and famous, and on the whole, looking down at the little plebians who, incidentally, are the entire reason the riches and fame (not to be confused with "The Power and the Glory," make note) exist in the first place.

That so many open-wheel fans of the present age (or at least, holdovers from the previous one) seem to "glamorize" this trend only shows me how little some if not most of them remember of the OLD days (of which I was, ironically, not at all a part, openly admitted...I'm 24 years old), when the names of not just FOYT and ANDRETTI existed, but JONES, JOHNCOCK, RUTHERFORD, RATHMANN, WARD (Rodger, not Jeff, thank you), MARSHMAN, THE UNSER BROTHERS...to name but a few, and leaving out the even more towering names that raced solely in the 50s...not because they got old, but because they died doing what they loved, in a fashion and in an era of the sport that modern (liberal) shills would positively SHRIEK at. And predating them? Even older names, going back into time of another kind of myth and legend.

Don't get me wrong, I highly approve of the safety measures introduced in the recent decades. But when a sport such as THIS one becomes Most concerned with safety, to the detriment of the original, Progressive-era Dream (...Fisher's Dream...)? Then it's a problem. If these grown men (and some rare women) want to risk their lives in pursuit of their dream, and just love, period, living dangerously...? Allow them to. Protect the FANS, absolutely. But the Lockharts of history are legend because they went all the way, unflinchingly and without (at least giving in to) fear; NO life that ends doing what it loves is a wasted life. Ever.

But again, I digress. The glamorization of the late years of CART still racing at Indianapolis is a situation that rankles me, enrages me...and yes, causes me to Hate.

By 1994, the situation in CART had progressed to the point that ovals were token, F1-style courses were the standard. Indianapolis, by sheer weight of All That It Meant, had remained mostly the same...but take note, it was sanctioned by a different organization. USAC still ran the Grand Ole' Race. If CART had ever gotten control...something tells me the situation would've been a lot different. After all, how many would've wanted to try to run both Monte Carlo and Indianapolis both...? Further and further links with the F1, Internationalist Style, and...

Yeah, they still ran at Michigan. But did it matter as much as in the old days? Wins at ovals, again, were token, and truly seen as more quaintly provincial, when you look at team and organizational attitudes toward them, than as a viable form of the sport that went all the way back to the board track days of the 1910s and 1920s national championship. Outside of Indy (which, ironically, I would not really classify as an oval), the ovals...were curiosity. Note how Nigel Mansell won in his rookie season in CART, when he wasn't very strong on the ovals...on what Sam Hornish, Jr., one or two years ago, claimed were much more a thinking man's game than roads and streets. Curious, once again. But, since Mansell was king that year on the far more prevelent style, he won. If modern open-wheel looks like vintage 1990s CART, "lite," 1990s CART was F1 Lite, and having aspirations of either replacing it, or who knows, joining with it (highly unlikely, but who knows how Ecclestone would've handled an actual challenge).

Through all this, it might sound like I'm being completely civil. I have been, to lead up to this part:

I HATED IT THEN, AND I HATE IT NOW.

EVERYTHING seemed to be going to hell, back then...and I was younger than 10 at the time! We had "stupid boring" racing at places like Belle Isle (thanks a pantload, TG, for that one added back on), drivers with names I for one (a young up-and-coming fan) couldn't even pronounce without some French or Portuguese concordance, and a whole generation of drivers finding it (LONG before TG founded IRL) far more easy (read: remotely, cosmically possible) to break in to higher level racing through Americana (once upon a time...) stock cars than caviar and champaigne open-wheel. What the hell did they know about highest level open-wheel anymore, anyway? It was with cars that were hella' different than the things they ran in USAC (ever since USAC banned rear-engined cars...imbeciles...), and almost all the racing was on freakin' CORKSCREW tracks. That was for...guys with foreign names, for one. And a trainload of money already in their pocket to buy rides.

I HATED it. God help me, I STILL shiver when I think about it. And, it seems it hasn't really changed much, with one single exception: the Indy Pro Series. More than anything else, that has given me hope for the future, with the sheer number of cars entered into it, these days. But again, digressing.

Everyone who wants to call out Tony George for having "a tantrum" needs to take a long hard look at what American open-wheel had become by the mid-1990s, and ask themselves what stake Americans really had in it anymore, other than The Great 500. Maybe the teams were mostly American...but the talent, the guys the fans root for that they can EMPATHIZE WITH...had been replaced. And with it, the basis for what made AOW so...bloody...AWESOME...for 60+ preceding years.

And, just to be sure...I'm fully capable of hating the IRL, its direction, and anything or anyone else involved of note, if George sells out to making it 80/20, roads/ovals. 50/50, dammit.

Volume II concluded.

[SoCalPVguy]

I absolutely HATE the Nascab redneck term

"Rubbin's Racin' "

[Nick Brad]

I absolutely HATE the Nascab redneck term

"Rubbin's Racin' "

Shame, as I live by that phrase in my racing life. :laugh:

[indycool]

This is a very interesting thread and I know from Gary's posts in the past that they are absolutely honest, take 'em or leave 'em, and, from his past posts, I believe he feels every word of his thread start.

I've kinda lurked around this thread and thought about my own feelings. And I just come back to the conclusion that I don't HATE anybody. I have consistently posted through the years that my strong preference is one series that includes the Indianapolis 500. My preference is oval racing because I grew up with it, watching sprinters at the local short track, but I have gone to many road races and enjoyed them. I have gone to motorcycle races. (Those guys on dirt are unreal.) I have gone to kart races and watched the kids run. I've watched street races and I don't HATE them, but I don't prefer them, either. I've watched F1 races (and, although the cars are impressive, I believe it to be way overblown.) I've watched NASCAR and liked it, liked some of the drivers. Have been to a Triple Crown snowmobile race and those guys are wild.

I have grown up in life with sports and that is my passion. I've attended plenty of MLB, NFL, NBA and NHL games. Golf tournaments, including the Masters. Two heavyweight title fights. The Harlem Globetrotters. Even the Roller Derby once and, although I "hate" to admit it, some bigtime wrestling.

I've had good experiences and bad experiences at this or that, but nothing that brings me to the level of HATE. I consider hate to be a level far above pissed-off. Gentilozzi pisses me off because, IMO, he's a total embarrassment to the sport, but I can't say I HATE him.

In the current discussions, people are going to argue about who's a winner and who's a loser and the boards are going to be full of it if or if not a deal is cut. But if a deal IS cut for there to be one series, some individual people and entities will gain, some will lose, but the SPORT will win and have a much better chance to grow.

[DavePI2]

Since I am still relatively new to being an avid fan(only 7 years) my list is nothing like everyone else and I certainly won't try to debate anyone on their likes or dislikes. However these are the things that I do hate .1. Cleveland not being there this year. Always will be my favorite race. 2. Nascar- how can anyone watch prearranged races and call it sport or racing for that matter. 3. The fan hospitality at Kentucky Speedway, absolutely the worst in sports. I am only going back because Michigan is not on the IRL schedule this year. If they were half as friendly as the folks at Toledo football games I wouldn't feel that way. 4. All the name calling that goes on esecially in this forum between the fans of the two series. I will admitt I did it myself at one time and I just hope with the merger we can all live together and create a real racing series that replaces that garbage like was on yesterday.

David

[NYHF]

.......I would add that I do hate NASCAR and while I do watch it occasionally, I find it not much different that the WWE. No matter how much I can't stand TG, I can't stand the modern version of NASCR even more..........

IRL and NASCAR have more similarities than they do differences.

[champcarray]

I gave you my hate list earlier. If CCWS collapses into the IRL, I guess I can look forward to NHL vs AGR and Pimpski, Rahal vs Andretti, Wilson vs. Franchitti... I mean Wilson vs. Hornish... better make that Wilson vs. Dixon.