Could the japanese team in F1 dissapear ? What consequenses would F1 bring?

[arcanox]

We know that Toyota and Honda haven't got excellent perfomance in F1, Do you think that if this season the things don't change this teams won't continue in F1?

best regards, let me know your opinions..
bye

[maxu05]

Perhaps if Toyota and Honda pulled out, Bernie would demand that japan holds a night race or be eliminated from the calender.

[ChrisS]

Pulling out of F1 as a failure would probably be more damaging to Toyota and Honda's image than poor results. As long as other major manufacturers are involved I believe that so will Toyota and Honda

[Ranger]

Toyota are in F1 until at least 2012, Honda until about then. They might still continue as engine suppliers and have a presence in F1 longer than that, though. They'll do it as long as there's marketing sense to do so.

[leopard]

Toyota and Honda can anytime pull out of F1, we may see Mazda to replace them then. :)

[ChrisS]

Toyota and Honda can anytime pull out of F1, we may see Mazda to replace them then. :)

Mazda is a Ford company, I believe Ford wont be returning to F1 any time soon

[leopard]

Mazda is a Ford company, I believe Ford wont be returning to F1 any time soon
thanks just noticed that Mazda is a Ford, I think so neither of them will be in F1, a wishful thinking.

[Mark]

Toyota and Honda both have the potential to be world beaters, it's a mystery why they are not.

[leopard]

Not sure the Yota, Honda might push the wrong button. :s

[Tazio]

Japanese teams have pulled out before, and F1 managed to carry on!

[maxu05]

How long before Korea, India or China throw their hat into the ring ? It might be 10 years from now, but, Bernie will be pushing up daisies by then, so you never know.

[Tazio]

Bernie will be pushing up daisies by then, so you never know.Maybe!
I wouldn't be surprised if he made it to ninety!
Hopefully he will have been retired by then!

[V12]

To be honest, with Bernie's wealth and stubbornness to just not....well, bugger off, I can just picture him being cryogenically unfrozen or having his head floating in one of those Futurama-style glass containers 200 years from now...

[maxu05]

That's a point. He reminds me of Monty Burnes from the Simpsons.

[trumperZ06]

;) Hhmmmm... interesting question that's probably being discussed within both board rooms!!!

:dozey: Both Honda and Toyota haven't seen the results expected by their intensive investment in Formula One. Much of the Money (if not all) is coming from the Marketing groups advertising budgets... and the F-1 cars are not even running in their number one market... the USA !!!

:D Both Honda and Toyota will be launching new "Super Sports Cars" in the next year or so... Marketing may want to move their budgets to sponsoring venues that offer a better return for their advertising dollars.

Toyota is currently running NA$CAR, and Porsche & Honda both have entries in ALMS... LMP2's. This enables them to get "brand recognition" in the USA.

Now that most major brands are supporting entries in ALMS/GT2... it would seem likely that these two Japanese manufacturers would want to also compete... given that their new Sports Cars should be capable. The investment is far less thn the co$ts of Formula 1 and brand identification is much more visible.

Given the current economy... the reduced co$ts alone makes such a choice attractive.

IMO... Bernie is in danger of killing the Golden Goose ie. automobile manufacturers who's support funds the majority of Formula One's teams, if he continues to move events to Third World Countries.

IMO... Bernie is in danger of killing the Golden Goose ie. automobile manufacturers who's support funds the majority of Formula One's teams, if he continues to move events to Third World Countries.

Aren't those 'Third World' countries the ones with the biggest increasing demand for automobiles?

Bernie is many things, but he is not stupid.

[BDunnell]

I don't think the question of why Honda and Toyota are uncompetitive is answerable to any significant degree, no matter how many times we try to do so. There are just so many contributory factors. As for whether they will pull out, I doubt it, because they seem to have bottomless pits of money for F1 and Toyota would probably have done so by now if results were crucial to their ongoing participation.

[trumperZ06]

Aren't those 'Third World' countries the ones with the biggest increasing demand for automobiles?

Bernie is many things, but he is not stupid.

:p : Hhmmmm... Percentage increases from year to year don't match total sales from Country to Country...

and you think Bernie's scheme is to convince the average new car buyer in these... Third World Countries to purchase a:

Ferrari
BMW
Mercedes
Toyota/Lexus
Honda/Acura
Renault/Nissan

Huh ???

:dozey: India and China (with the largest populations) have their own auto manufacturers who will produce extremely cheap cars that suit today's market.

As their customers move up the economic ladder, these home grown companies will follow the Japanese business plan...
improving their products....
while also rising their price.

Now the wealthy in the Oil producing Countries can afford the luxury cars... but they are likely to buy them... with or without a Formula One event.

:rolleyes: Now if... the general population is so enamored with Formula One events... then why is it neccessary for their Governments to fund them?

[Malbec]

:p : Hhmmmm... Percentage increases from year to year don't match total sales from Country to Country...

and you think Bernie's scheme is to convince the average new car buyer in these... Third World Countries to purchase a:

Ferrari
BMW
Mercedes
Toyota/Lexus
Honda/Acura
Renault/Nissan

Huh ???

:dozey: India and China (with the largest populations) have their own auto manufacturers who will produce extremely cheap cars that suit today's market.

As their customers move up the economic ladder, these home grown companies will follow the Japanese business plan...
improving their products....
while also rising their price.

Now the wealthy in the Oil producing Countries can afford the luxury cars... but they are likely to buy them... with or without a Formula One event.

:rolleyes: Now if... the general population is so enamored with Formula One events... then why is it neccessary for their Governments to fund them?

You're quite right, Bernie is backed by car makers who want to see their profiles raised in those third world countries.

China and India have huge emerging middle classes that in each country threaten to outnumber the whole of Europe or America. You really think Honda, Toyota, BMW etc don't care if these guys ignore Civics, Corollas and 3-Series in favour of other cars?

I'm sure you know btw that many makers already manufacture cars with those thirld world markets in mind already, its not as if they're not already there.

Its all about brand positioning and these makers want their brands in China and India. They want them in America too which is why Bernie faced complaints from the makers when Indy got pulled.

[trumperZ06]

You're quite right, Bernie is backed by car makers who want to see their profiles raised in those third world countries.

China and India have huge emerging middle classes that in each country threaten to outnumber the whole of Europe or America. You really think Honda, Toyota, BMW etc don't care if these guys ignore Civics, Corollas and 3-Series in favour of other cars?

I'm sure you know btw that many makers already manufacture cars with those thirld world markets in mind already, its not as if they're not already there.

Its all about brand positioning and these makers want their brands in China and India. They want them in America too which is why Bernie faced complaints from the makers when Indy got pulled.

;) The major manufacturers are ALREADY in China... Bernie's not bringing them into these markets.

Formula One isn't likely to increase their sales in these Countries. The average "man in the street" can't afford to attend or participate in the F-1 Circus, and probably doesn't care.

:D Let's see how long these events survive... without Gov't funding, before declaring Bernie's scheme a success.

I suspect Ole Bernie will take their Money... Tobacco will get advertising, and both will move on to another Third World Country when the Gov'ts get tired of lining Bernies pockets.

[Malbec]

;) The major manufacturers are ALREADY in China... Bernie's not bringing them into these markets.

Formula One isn't likely to increase their sales in these Countries. The average "man in the street" can't afford to attend or participate in the F-1 Circus, and probably doesn't care.

:D Let's see how long these events survive... without Gov't funding, before declaring Bernie's scheme a success.

I suspect Ole Bernie will take their Money... Tobacco will get advertising, and both will move on to another Third World Country when the Gov'ts get tired of lining Bernies pockets.

Thats precisely what I said, cars like the Honda City, Fiat Palio, Renault Logan, designed and marketed with the third world in mind.

F1 is about marketing. One doesn't have to attend the race to be on the receiving end of the marketing. All one needs is a TV or a newspaper or to walk past a billboard with a cool looking race car sprouting wings everywhere with the name Renault or Honda or whatever in order to receive the message that manufacturer X is cool, builds race cars and makes cars you want to buy. The Shanghai GP is strongly promoted in China as evidence that they are finally rejoining the top rank of countries that can host such a race. India has picked up quite strongly that one F1 team is owned by an Indian and is named after the country. The exposure is already there.

Countries want to host F1 because it increases local tourism and boosts public image, not because they want to aid and abet car makers in making more money. The two are not connected.

[Valve Bounce]

Toyota are the top selling car in Oz, so I don't see them pulling out. Their participation just keeps the name in everyone's mind and the fact that technically, they are ahead of the teams who do not compete (like Holden and Ford). It's all in the mind, but the fact remains that Toyota does make a very good car and has a good reputation here.

[maxu05]

[quote="trumperZ06"] :p : Hhmmmm... Percentage increases from year to year don't match total sales from Country to Country...



:dozey: India and China (with the largest populations) have their own auto manufacturers who will produce extremely cheap cars that suit today's market.

I have to tell you that since coming to China, (6 years ago), that I have never seen so many BMW's, Lexus, Merc's, Audi''s and Porsche's. Just in the Province of Guangdong, there are probably more of these cars than the total number of cars on the road in Australia as an example. This is a huge market for prestige cars, not just tiny little budget cars.I think that is the reason that Bernie is pushing for races in countries like this. I don't like that it's at the expense of countries that have a rich tradition in F1 though.

[trumperZ06]

Toyota are the top selling car in Oz, so I don't see them pulling out. Their participation just keeps the name in everyone's mind and the fact that technically, they are ahead of the teams who do not compete (like Holden and Ford). It's all in the mind, but the fact remains that Toyota does make a very good car and has a good reputation here.

;) Toyota was leading GM for auto sales throughout 2007... World-Wide. It seems GM was just able to sneak by for the lead in December.

I don't think their entry in F-1 added much to Toyota's sales though !!!

Most businesses want to be 1st or second... Toyota's F-1 racing is far from that goal !!!

[trumperZ06]

:p : Hhmmmm... Percentage increases from year to year don't match total sales from Country to Country...



:dozey: India and China (with the largest populations) have their own auto manufacturers who will produce extremely cheap cars that suit today's market.

I have to tell you that since coming to China, (6 years ago), that I have never seen so many BMW's, Lexus, Merc's, Audi''s and Porsche's. Just in the Province of Guangdong, there are probably more of these cars than the total number of cars on the road in Australia as an example. This is a huge market for prestige cars, not just tiny little budget cars.I think that is the reason that Bernie is pushing for races in countries like this. I don't like that it's at the expense of countries that have a rich tradition in F1 though.

:dozey: What's the difference in population in China compared to Australia ???

Now how many Chinese own cars ?

Those that currently don't own cars... are they likely to be able to afford a... Lexus ???


Nuff said....

:s mokin:

[maxu05]

But that's the thing, more and more people that could not afford cars in the past are now able to due to the rising economy. The gap between rich and poor is still large, but, the middle class is emerging at a rapid rate. That will be the market that the prestige car companies will be chasing for the next few years. Many of these middle class are buying Toyota Camry's and Mazda 6's etc now, but they want to buy a Merc, and Audi or a Beemer.

[Malbec]

Now how many Chinese own cars ?

Those that currently don't own cars... are they likely to be able to afford a... Lexus ???


Nuff said....

:s mokin:

Thats exactly the point isn't it.

There are literally millions of Chinese who want a car, can't afford one now but will be in a few years time. Its called growth potential. As maxu said there are plenty that can afford a car now but aspire to a much better one too.

You don't need to believe it if you will but IMO money talks and the number of car makers building factories in China or partnering up with local companies is staggering. As is the number of Western car maker stands at Chinese motorshows. The car maker CEOs can recognise China and India's potential even if you can't I'm afraid.

[trumperZ06]

Thats exactly the point isn't it.

There are literally millions of Chinese who want a car, can't afford one now but will be in a few years time. Its called growth potential. As maxu said there are plenty that can afford a car now but aspire to a much better one too.

You don't need to believe it if you will but IMO money talks and the number of car makers building factories in China or partnering up with local companies is staggering. As is the number of Western car maker stands at Chinese motorshows. The car maker CEOs can recognise China and India's potential even if you can't I'm afraid.

:p : Some seem to be.... missing the point of this thread.

" Could the Japanese team's in Formula 1 dis-appear"? What consequences would Formula 1 bring" ?



;) The thread isn't about... should Auto Mfg'rs expand into... Third World Countries,

It's asking if the present Japanese teams in Formula One might be considering...leaving !!!

Economics today, along with Honda & Toyota's racing results would certainly cause them to consider... Leaving !!!

:dozey: Formula One had NOTHING to do with the major manufacturers deciding to expand into Third World Countries... these mfg'rs were there...

LONG before Bernie started moving the F-1 Circus into these Third World sites.

:s mokin:

[maxu05]

I think you are missing the point. The old saying that win on Sunday, sell on Monday rings true in these new markets. Many of these countries have no, or little experience in purchasing prestige or performance vehicles. The car that they see win, or the manufacturer that they see win is the one that they want, as they know that car is a winner. It is all relative to the thread IMO, as, if the Japanese should leave F1, they would not have such an exposure to these markets. It's the same with motorcycles as well. I have seen many motorcycles with a big #46 on the front, why ? because they are exposed to Valentino Rossi by watching Motogp. Most of these bike riders would rush out and buy a Yamaha R1 if they were available here. So if the average Joe here watching F1, seeing Toyota as the tail end Charlie is not going to get exited at the prospect of forking over all his hard earned cash for a Toyota, when he can be driving a Merc, BMW, that are at least at the pointy end of the field.

Since 1999, Bernie has added the emerging economies of Malaysia, China, Turkey and Singapore to the F1 calendar.

Since 1999, Renault, BMW, Honda & Toyota have joined F1 as manufacturers.

But that's just coincidence, because obviously nobody in those countries would want to drive a car associated with an F1 manufacturer?

[Malbec]

:p : Some seem to be.... missing the point of this thread.

" Could the Japanese team's in Formula 1 dis-appear"? What consequences would Formula 1 bring" ?

;) The thread isn't about... should Auto Mfg'rs expand into... Third World Countries,

It's asking if the present Japanese teams in Formula One might be considering...leaving !!!

Economics today, along with Honda & Toyota's racing results would certainly cause them to consider... Leaving !!!

:dozey: Formula One had NOTHING to do with the major manufacturers deciding to expand into Third World Countries... these mfg'rs were there...

LONG before Bernie started moving the F-1 Circus into these Third World sites.

:s mokin:


Ahh the usual tactic of someone who's hit the buffers, change the subject.

I'm afraid you've got a serious case of the tail wagging the dog. The expansion of F1 into new third world markets helps make the sport more attractive for the makers in terms of marketing potential. No one here is attempting to argue that the carmakers went to China because F1 went there first..... Strawman argument there ;)

And yes its relevant to whether or not the Japanese makers stay in as Honda and Toyota are both significant competitors in China and India and also openly view F1 as a good marketing tool.

[Malbec]

Just to add something about the costs of staying in F1.....

Toyota has cash reserves (or had about a decade ago) $40 billion. Honda had $20 billion. Both stayed profitable over the past decade so they have bigger reserves now.

Lets round up the cost of a season of F1 to $500 million for each team. Assuming an interest rate of somewhere around 4-5% the cost of competing is less than a years interest for Toyota and slightly more for Honda.

Believe me, these guys are not going to be looking at the costs of F1 with the same critical intensity as the guys at Ford did, and whilst neither are setting the world on fire Toyota are extremely happy with their sales in Europe and South America, the two markets that their F1 project was specifically intended to increase their profile in.